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One defensive system or more? Expand / Collapse
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Posted 01/11/2007 17:23:57
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If we are coaching that attack should play what "is in front of your eyes" and react to defensive shapes and patterns, wouldn't it be reasonable to have different defensive "calls" for different situations, either reacting to what the attack is doing or anticipating what it is going to do? 

Up and out??  Up and in??  Up and hold??  Drift??  Float??  Hybrid patterns?? 

Post #427
Posted 02/11/2007 09:09:14
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i would agree...  but...  like anything its probably a medium term goal in reality.  You;d be better off "perfecting" one system before working on another rather than ending up with two or more systems none of which can be used properly.

cheers

didds

Post #428
Posted 02/11/2007 16:16:38
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The Up and Decide system described on the "Defensive Systems" thread is a bit of up and in and a bit of up and out and may suit some teams.

In gridiron football as you know, defensive plays are called in like offensive ones - effectively different systems and variations within them - as the offense and defense try to out think each other. In theory there is no reason why rugby teams should not call defensive moves just as they do attacking moves. But, as Didds says, this is probably some way off as many teams below the top level barely have one defensive system to speak of - a bit of drift... Gridiron is decades ahead in such matters.
Post #429
Posted 12/11/2007 22:35:32
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I've enjoyed reading about the crossover of defensive systems from gridiron and league (league having been implemented for awhile now).  One thing which seems to be overlooked is the ability of a football coach to micro-manage his or her players.

On every single play, a coach can tell his key players exactly where to line up, their defensive assignments, etc while the player catches his breath.  This aspect of gridiron makes for a sharp contrast to rugby, where tired players must line up, find their assignment (where a channel or an opposite number) and react to the play.

A tired player makes poorer decisions and has less skill than a fit and ready player.  Simple systems seem a requirement of physiology more than skill-set.

"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is who you are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are" - John Wooden

Post #452
Posted 13/11/2007 09:28:10


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While I can see what rugby can learn from Gridiron in some areas of the game - mostly physical development - defence is one are where I think the two games are so far apart that there is no potential crossover.

Gridiron employs specialist defensive teams where players concentrate on their defensive techniques and patterns. They have a pause before every play to discuss and call the next defensive play which is only one phase at a time. The defensive systems they employ, while complex, are more 3 dimensional and individual man on man than in rugby and therefore require less decision making and communication. Once the defensive team have done their job they get a rest until the next time, they rarely have to think about attacking and when they do its pretty much off the cuff from turnovers.

Rugby League has more to offer the Rugby Union coach. Although it is worth remembering that the influence from League to Union was in terms of attitudes to defence and individual and team psychology as much as employing rugby league style patterns of defence.

Rugby Union is a multi phase game where defenders have to constantly react to a changing environment in front of them. Defence is more team orientated then either League or Gridiron and so communication is absolutely essential. Tacklers have multiple roles other than just knocking down the ball carrier - rolling away, competing for the ball, re-aligning for the next phase or rucking. The instantanious decision making needed makes rugby union defence far more complex than either of the other two sports.

For this reason rugby union teams usually use one defensive pattern (possibly two) but they make sure it works effectivley and the players are comfortable with it.

In my opinion (and that's all it is) I wouldn't worry about what defensive system you use. Instead coach the David Ellis principles:

Exert pressure

Gain ground

Win Possession

Physically dominate the opposition

Concentrate on the individual and the team:

Individual: tackle technique, confidence 1 on 1, enjoyment, commitment, understanding

Team: straight line, COMMUNICATION, constant line speed and more COMMUNICATION

Make sure players understand the need for a straight line and for moving up at the same speed. As players improve they can start looking for the turnover oppotunities, when and where they occur.

You can find out more on David Ellis' site http://www.de-fence.co.uk/defence.html 

Post #454
Posted 14/11/2007 16:57:21
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I understand the concern of having two or even more defensive "systems" in place, the difficulties and pressures it might pose on the players but I believe that it is crucial to have flexibility in the approach.  I was talking the other day to a fellow coach --that coaches at international level-- and he was telling me, in line with your reasoning, that he dared not use the up and in approach (the side uses the drift and, very occasionally, on mistakes by the opposition, they blitz) with international players!!! 

Maybe a safer approach would be to vary the speed at which the defensive line "attacks" the possession of the opposition, keeping the same "system" in place.  My thought was around the lines that most teams use a variation of some sort of the up and in system and, consequently, that most of the teams are used to attack against a team that defends in that manner.  Not altering the call for the system "in the move" but rather have it applied from certain set pieces in certain situations.  Maybe, up and in for the first 20 minutes of the game, each time we are in their own half, from set pieces only. 

Regards,

Post #456
Posted 15/11/2007 08:38:05
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interesting in that you feel that most teams use up and in...  what part of the world do you play in?

IME, the majority of junior clubs in England use drift/up and out...

cheers

didds

Post #458
Posted 16/11/2007 13:56:26
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Yes, most seem to use a drift/up and out as standard from my experience. No reason not to try others - it will depend on the players at your disposal.

In league it is normal to vary the defence in different parts of the field, even with 12 year olds from what I understand. (Players will also vary the type of tackle used depending on the situation and field position.) For example a "jamming" defence in their 40m zone - packing defenders tight together to really restrict the yards gained to players running straight trying to bring the ball out. 2 men marking the PTB. Inviting the attackers to try to move the ball wide to get round the defence with the risks that entails. In the middle part of the field go to an up and out or up and in depending on the strengths of the team, 2 markers at the PTB. In your own 20, go to 1 marker at the PTB. Some coaches like to vary their left and right sided defence as well.

I must gently take issue with some of what Paul Tyler says - gridiron uses man on man and zone defences. It is highly specialised but has developed to deal with highly sophisticated offences whose plays almost explode, they unfold so fast. Rugby attacks look like men running in treacle by comparison. Whereas the overall structure of gridiron defence is not directly relevant to RU or RL mostly because the attacking plays are so different, there are little tips and tricks that can be picked up. For example simle things like defenders not being stood up tall are stressed from an early age. A player stood up tall with straight knees will need to drop down before he can make a move to react to an opponent. This may cost him half a second. With an opponent moving at quite a few meters per second (a top international sprinter will average around 10m/s for 100m) one can see that 1/2 a sec translates into a fair distance moved by the opponent - he may be gone or the oportunity to make anything other than a territory losing tackle from behind is lost.

Defence in RL and RU is, by definition a team activity. The tackle situation in RU is certainly more complex but the team co-ordination required in defence is of a similar level. Both have to deal with and react to evolving patterns of play. RL defenses need to be highly co-ordinated as they are facing attacks who will be running pre-arranged patterns for up to 6 plays designed to pull them out of shape. These plays will be deployed with all possible speed - none of this "scrum half stood staring at the ball waiting for someone to make a run" nonsense. When league players make 2 and 3 man tackles, this is not an accident. When that happens an overlap will be being created somewhere else. Much practice goes into the nomination and numbering to ensure the team can control where that overlap occurs - this is not easy but good teams do it so well one hardly notices it happen.

At the end of the day defence in any of these codes is hard and needs lots of work.

Post #461