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Forum Guru
 
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| Darren You beat me to it. It would be interesting to run a "straw poll" across all coaches involved with coaching young people, from minis to Colts, and to find out how many of those coaches, not the club coaching coordinators or age group head coaches but ALL coaches, actually have access to and read the Age Grade Regulations (Continuum doesn't exist anymore!) Every year as we move up an age level the rules are different and it should be a club policy that coaches are made aware and expected to know what the rules are that they will have to adhere to and coach to for the new season. Remember your insurance cover depends on you getting it right. It seems that there are a small number of coaches at every club who do keep up to date with things but then it becomes a game of "chinese whispers" over a couple of beers for the rest of them. I actually came across a coach a few years back who didn't know what the Continuum was and what it was for!
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It has recently come to my attention that I have fallen foul of the the Continuum simply by getting our U8s to grab a tackle shield for 10 - 15 minutes in a recent session. The rule is 'no contact' otherwise you are not covered on insurance.
Having watched what the players did last year at U7 having been dismissed from our loving care, and that was 'tackle and generally do what they had seen on the telly' I thought it was better to show them how do it properly rather than risk injury, which also gave them an introduction to a fundamental skill they will need next year.
As an aside if a player was injured on the club's property after they were handed back to their parents, I would love to know whether they would be covered by insurance?
Having read through the 'Shape The Game' documents there is much to applaud, and I for one would embrace it. Anything that helps the 'lesser players' through what is a quantum leap from tag to full contact has got to be good.
However, i think Andy's view below is a bit naive, as I know from talking to other coaches in my county that a significant number of coaches move to full contact training at U8s from Christmas - whether that is in ignorance of the Continuum, or whether it is being deliberately ignored I don't know?
andytm (26/09/2011)
Hi, I coached under 9's last season, first the big thing, remember every other team is in the same boat your kids will be going out against children that have only had four weeks as well.
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Supreme Being
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Was_quite_good (27/09/2011)
It has recently come to my attention that I have fallen foul of the the Continuum simply by getting our U8s to grab a tackle shield for 10 - 15 minutes in a recent session. The rule is 'no contact' otherwise you are not covered on insurance.
yup. as advised generally speaking by the RFU and by dint of that presumably Marsh their insurers. Who will or won't pay based on the criteria they lay down, which includes adherence to the AG regs.
Having watched what the players did last year at U7 having been dismissed from our loving care, and that was 'tackle and generally do what they had seen on the telly' I thought it was better to show them how do it properly rather than risk injury, which also gave them an introduction to a fundamental skill they will need next year.
understood entirely.
But whether you or I or Duncan or anybody else disagrees, as far as the insurances in place for you, or I, or Duncan, or any other coach are concerned... it only exists IF you follow AG regs.
So if/when you, or I, or Duncan, or anybody else chooses to implement common sense, or whatever, outside of the AG regs... we are on our own. That doesn't make the thought process wrong, it doesn;t make you doing it wrong - it just means we are not covered by any of the standard insurances we as coaches under the RFU umbrella would normally enjoy.
In the same way that you might take your neighbours to the airport for half the price of a taxi fare- its not illegal per se, but your insurers possibly aren't covering you while you do it as it possibly breaks their T&Cs for your car insurance.
As an aside if a player was injured on the club's property after they were handed back to their parents, I would love to know whether they would be covered by insurance?
[quote]
what insurance?
Coaches insurance? Nobody is coaching. And obviously not under the AG regs.
Public liability ? Possibly - but not for being injured whilst playing ... only if they broke a leg down a badger hole - maybe (obvious risk assessment caveats aside). Which they might do whilst walking around normally etc. Whether they were tackling/walking/singing.siting is irrelevant to public liability ) notwithstanding personal culpability eg injured whilst jumping off the club house roof). But IANAL :-)
[quote]
However, i think Andy's view below is a bit naive, as I know from talking to other coaches in my county that a significant number of coaches move to full contact training at U8s from Christmas - whether that is in ignorance of the Continuum, or whether it is being deliberately ignored I don't know?
The point here is that it is not ILLEGAL. Its not even necessarily WRONG - outside of a ethical debate maybe. You - as a coach - can do anything you like. You can get them lifting in lineouts, you can have contested scrummages at 8 years old, etc etc etc. You can have 9 years olds playing contact rugby against 15 year olds. You can do anything YOU choose to. It just means you can't turn round and ask Marsh - the RFU insures - to cover you if you need it. Because you haven't fulfilled the T&Cs of the insurances. So when these other coaches do it, that is up to them - if it all goes horribly wrong and some child's parents' ambulance chasing lawyer wins them a million quid... you as the responsible adult that said it was OK to do these things just has to find a million quid. But it won't come from Marsh, or the RFU. Nor will your legal representative's fees.
Quite why others do it I can't comment - and i suspect nor can Duncan or anybody else. You'd have to ask those coaches that question.
Of course it could be that you, or these other coaches have alternative insurances in place - such as I believe schools typically have. In which case you just need to follow the T&Cs of those alternative insurances.
andytm (26/09/2011)
Hi, I coached under 9's last season, first the big thing, remember every other team is in the same boat your kids will be going out against children that have only had four weeks as well.
Well, I would have to say that on the whole Andy is right. In england. For clubs/coaches that have followed the AG regs and understand where they leave a coach where they sit wrt insurance. Of course, where Andy's argument falls down a little is when you come up against players whose club's understand and implement this but the players have the "benefit" of maybe learning these skills in another environment where insurances are in place (presumably?) - such as schools or Rugby league. Otherwise his was a reasonable opinion to make IMO.
If you haven't had this explained to you by your club's CCC, then you'll have to take that up with him/her as to why not.
If you meet club teams at U9 in England who have been coached the contact game prior to U9 in the club environment, you'll have to take it up with them.
In the same way that if you have an accident with a bloke in his car, receiving payment for transporting people in his car without suitable insurance to cover that... you'll have to take that up with him.
didds
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Supreme Being
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| Who said Didds is a man of few words!?!??!? Peace and love fella! 
p.s. hows the Coach developer stuff going?
Darren Club Coaching CoordinatorHavant RFC07425168836kinghamscott@aol.comwww.havantrfc.co.uk
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Supreme Being
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d4zzler (29/09/2011)
Who said Didds is a man of few words!?!??!?
I have be somewhat tighter with words when I write in certain publications :-) This is let my hair down place :-)
p.s. hows the Coach developer stuff going?
Excellent - really enjoying it. :-)
didds
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| I am coaching U7s in Switzerland, we follow the French system and not the RFU, therefore we coach tackling from the start. We have no problem teaching the kids tackling, in fact trying to get them not to tackle is more of an issue. They still try to find space and exploit the gaps, because they want to score tries as individuals. We teach the tackle safely, there is no tackling above the waist. The main problem is not the children but the parents, scared that the little darlings will get hurt. As we see it, the little ones do not get hurt, we have not had one injury. Yes they get a knock here or there, but nothing more than a bump or bruise. The ones who do get injured tend to be the bigger kids, from aged 14 upwards, they are hitting harder, at greater pace and running into more solid defence. All the children we have recruited have stayed, in fact the club junior section is growing so fast we can't keep up the pace. None of the kids leave because of the contact element, in fact they love it and love to get stuck in. It gives them confidence. Some parents have remarked that their little ones no longer whine or cry when the get a little bang at home, they rub it and get on with it, whereas previously they screamed blue murder, for the simplest little thing. I understand the RFU worries, but not really sure they are well founded, and would love to see the research that persuaded them to go this way.
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Supreme Being
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Was_quite_good (27/09/2011)
However, i think Andy's view below is a bit naive, as I know from talking to other coaches in my county that a significant number of coaches move to full contact training at U8s from Christmas - whether that is in ignorance of the Continuum, or whether it is being deliberately ignored I don't know?Insert standard intro - I coach in Scotland - uninsert We play U9 contact, U8 and below touch. However, all through the season (well, until about now when the ground is soaking and the kids get too cold too quickly) we play bulldogs mixing all the U9's together and doing tackling. From around March we, with parent's consent, also play the better U8's in games with the U9's and therefore they get exposure to takling. We also coach tackling correctly early on for U8's but this is more a safety thing as they tackle each other when mucking around before and after training so we want them to do it properly (particularly 'don't tackle anyone who isn't expecting it'). Club is happy insurance wise (at least I think they are, you've got me worried so I'm going to check........) but sensible wise it makes a lot of sense.
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I have had my u7's and u8's play both sets of rules as we are on a border of two counties. Now I can understand that the new rules may work. It so happens that my team are so looking forward to going to full contact it's unbelievable. I have a problem trying to stop them tackling each other, and just play tag.
I can say that there is one thing about the pilot scheme that doesn't add up. You will need more coaches!! and for small clubs this will be impossible.
Festivals will need more pitches which means more bodies to run things.
We are all volunteers but the rfu must look at small clubs and not just the big ones that have the infrastructure to make the new pilot scheme work!
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quins15 (12/03/2012)
You will need more coaches!! and for small clubs this will be impossible.
STF removes AIUI the on field coach behind the players. So the 3 coaches currently on a tag pitch during ag game (1 each side plus ref) are now all available to ref a game - so that's 3 games that can now be reffed wih no more coaches.
Festivals will need more pitches which means more bodies to run things.
maybe some more time/effort to mark out the previous one pitch into four instead... but see above ... not sure why it means more people to run things? each team there presumably has two refs available rather than one ref and a coach running behind?
didds
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Good point, but at a festival it wouldn't work that well.
In a normal seven aside game 1 coach for each side on the pitch and one ref. Usually were I am there would be 2 pitches set aside in a festival for 2 pool groups, 10 teams. You would have maybe 1 other coach watching the subs ready to get them on the pitch. Also 2 pitch marshals if your lucky!
In the new pilot scheme to make things equal you would need 4 pitches running so you can get nearly the same amount of children playing.
This means entering 2 teams of 4 children, with subs. You would need at least one extra coach if both teams are on at the same time.
I am not saying its a bad way of doing things 'and may be looking at it wrong' but so far I haven't seen festivals increase the number of teams being entered. Which means less children are playing?
I could be wrong and festival organisers may be putting in provisions for this.
Moving on, the pilot scheme has been set up to retain players. In my experience 'very limited' its usually the parents that don't want to get up on sunday or if its too cold and the child hasn't got enough layers they don't want to play anymore.
I have to say my 30+ children would be heart broken next season when they reach U9's if the pilot scheme gets rolled out and they can't tackle. Thats all they are waiting for.....
Like I said before my thoughts could be rubbish but I thought I would chuck them in anyway!
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