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Forum Guru
 
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Last Login: 19/03/2011 21:45:42
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| Having had a fruitful day watching the Tri-Nations and Womens World Cup it is noticeable that it is virtually impossible to contest legally at the breakdown. When a player is tackled he presents the ball on 'the ground', for a player to challenge for the ball and I'm referring to body position he has to bend at the waist, he doing so his head and shoulders are below that of his/her hips. This position is deemed illegal but everyone does it/has to do it, for a player legally to challenge for the ball he would have to approach the ball on his knees. It also noticeable that players driving out at the ruck are virtually always going off there feet, the odd player is penalised but when a team attack in twos or threes then it is often overlooked. With this area more important than ever I'm concerned that the head and cervical spine area is exposed to potential trauma. Obviously if there is no one challenging for the ball you can step over, straight back and just pick the ball up but at some stage you have to look down. Have I got it completely wrong?
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Forum Guru
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| Clearly competing for the ball on your knees is illegal and stupid, I meant in terms of a starting body position (head and shoulders not below hips) which would be considered legal. I should have made that clear.
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Supreme Being
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well, you can sink at the hips as you bend the knees to lower the body.
And of course the laws don;t say its illegal to have shoulders below hips in order to pick the ball up otherwise players would be giving away PKs when picking up a rolling ball in open space on their own maybe.
But what you generally highlight is that in the elite game some laws are observed mainly in the breach - for whatever maybe otherwise well intended reasons - which in the community game maybe would not be condoned by society referees that are trained to ref by the book.
Summary - the ruck is a mess and has been since 1992, since when law changes and emphases on interpretation have been continually made in in order to try and tidy up the last inadvertent situation caused by the last law change/interpretation..
didds
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| I could have worded this post better, there are many world class back row forwards who would claim they are sinking at their hips. The problem I see is that the lower you sink the more your balance is compromised, when you factor in the challenge for the ball, fighting for the few inches beyond the ball, the head is often thrown forwards, it is therefore questionable whether they are supporting their own weight.
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Forum Guru
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I agree that we are talking about a much bigger elephant. The breakdown is a nightmare, the scrum is a joke-sometimes I wonder if we play the same games as the Elite squad...
Death or Glory
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Supreme Being
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It sounds like you have entered my kingdom. In which case, the animal in the middle of the room does not exist... however, every now and then a squirrel monkey stands in its place but we deal with it and it happily goes on its way  . It has been many, many years since I coached a rugby 'player', although I do like to work with coaches who do, it makes my job all the more effective... I am one of those mythical creatures who coach the rugby 'athlete'. It is possible to stay legal, but it calls for a lot of strength, flexibility, agility, balance and co-ordination. Getting this low can also cause issues in the hips and more particularly the knees [PCL] unless done so correctly. Bottom line though, the more you train this procedure correctly, the easier it becomes. The key is to keep the back straight and this is done by retracting and depressing the shoulder blades. You are right to be concerned about the cervical spine and this should be protected at all times.
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Forum Newbie
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Well crookedfeed, Let me just start by saying I am a Leinster branch ref. My other sideline/hobby is coaching!
Law 16.3 (e) (Ruck) Players must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips.
Sanction: Free Kick
About the breakdown. A bit of a minefield, from both player and refs point of view. of course at international level players would have the physical conditioning to get into a strong position as well as to be physically strong. being low to the ground does not make you unbalanced I don't think. much better than to be in a high position.
As said already it is not illegal to bend your head below the waist in general palay, but is not advisable as a rule. But as 16e says, at a ruck you are expected to keep your head no lower than your hips. When did you last see a free kick given for this? I can't remember EVER seeing a FREE kick given at a ruck!!! (But I probably will next match I ref!!)
If you are entering a ruck/tackle area where there is opportunity to pick up the ball, while being in danger of being tackled or having to contest with the opposition, it is in your interest to be low to the ground hip first. At international level they do put themselves into bad positions with their head down near the prone players body and this is a dangerous enough position.
But wait, there's more....
LAW 16.2 JOINING A RUCK
(a) All players forming, joining or taking part in a ruck must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips.
Sanction: Free Kick
(b) A player joining a ruck must bind on a team-mate or an opponent, using the whole arm. The bind must either precede, or be simultaneous with, contact with any other part of the body of the player joining the ruck.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(c) Placing a hand on another player in the ruck does not constitute binding.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(d) All players forming, joining or taking part in a ruck must be on their feet.
Sanction: Penalty kick
16.3 RUCKING
(a) Players in a ruck must endeavour to stay on their feet.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) A player must not intentionally fall or kneel in a ruck. This is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick
I thnk it is fair to say that the intention of the laws around the ruck are to keep the players on their feet under their own steam.
Remember that the player at all times must be able to hold their own body weight off the ground without touching the ground or any player on the ground or else he is at best out of play or at worst penalised.
This is often overlooked at International and it does my head in!!
I think at international level, refs seem to be given a 'directive' to crack down on a particular aspect of play which is considered illegal, but after a while that seems to get watered down and does not get penalised at all after a few months.
Remember earlier this year refs were blowing up for being in front of the kicker when it is booted up field, even though they were big slow forwards, were 60 m from where the ball landed and would be put on side within seconds, way before they influenced play? It was strictly correct within the law, but a farce. That isn't happening any more.
So within a few months it disappeared without any change in the law.
You might say that now taems are more wary about being offside but look at the tri-nations and they were at it again!
Anyway, at the ruck when someone is bent over the ball head (illegally) below their hips the modern way of removing them is by grabbing them across the shoulder and rolling them to the side. This is not a legal move as it is tackling above the shoulders, yet it is done at EVERY international match and is in my view a very dangerous manouvre, because it starts as being a torso twist but often ends up being a head twist which is obviously effective but very dangerous and should be penalised very strictly but it is not!
Anyway thats my bugbear at the moment! It is down to the refs at local level to ensure that the players play within safe perameters and the law leans in that direction.
It is important too, to remember that local matches are not internationals and will be and should be reffed differently to test matches. They should be reffed to the letter of the law, if they are not then the game becomes more dangerous.
PS Sorry to Woffle on!!
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Forum Guru
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| Big Rog, please see my post with regards 'Martial Arts Techniques in Rugby,' with regards clearing out at the breakdown, clearly it is possible to maintain a low wide base legally however the challenge for the ball as mentioned is the area that concerns me, there have been documented cases of concussions and other serious injuries from the head/cervical spine being placed in a vulnerable position. So if the ball challenger at the ruck places his head lower than his hips is it illegal? As mentioned players can watch a lot of rugby and will copy what they see.
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Forum Newbie
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crookedfeed,
Read it just now. Agreed.
Yes the area of ball contest is dodgy. But I maintain that you must be upright under your own steam. With this in mind it becomes more difficult to put yourself into a dangerous head below hip position due to balance and why would you want to. Bar to pick up the ball, which should only take a second and then get back to a good secure stance.
The trouble is that refs don't ping holding on by a player untill the legal man on their feet has had a good old wrestle with him all the time being in a prone position. With a ref that is slow to blow for illegal holding on to the ball on the ground, the team trying to get the ball from the man on ground will soon hang back if they get blown off the ball without penalty, thereby handing advantage to aggressive and slightly illegal team!
Back to the refs then...
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| I very much appreciate the responses. I am in the process of transferring this information. Watched the Womens RWC Final yesterday, saw 2 textbook steals at the breakdown, rightly applauded, saw 2 steals with the body postion I referred to and they were equally praised. Funny game rugby!
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