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What is effective scrummaging in junior grade... Expand / Collapse
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Posted 24/08/2010 13:44:24
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Having the responsibility of instructing the scrummage in all its glory I would welcome feedback as to any approaches to coaching this particular age group. The club to which I'm attached have some talented backs and the emphasis and 'expertise' lies in this area with regards the coaching staff. Some bigger lads have been encouraged to play in the forwards as they are deemed unsuitable candidates for the glory positions, I've sent them back as they didn't want to play in the forwards. How does someone increase the profile of forward play in a backs dominated environment? My emphasis has been on technical proficiency and safety. What I've encountered from some other clubs varies from no interest whatsoever to adopting adult tactics and attitudes at the set piece. I've witnessed illegal binding, boring in, the works. This clearly is the the coaches' responsibility but what with the arrival of extensive tv coverage and the internet approaches can be picked over.

With regards u13s-u15s how do we acknowledge effective scrummaging. Is it simply the ability to provide forward motion, is it to disrupt your opponent, is it to mentally dominate. The laws pertaining to this age group are clear so there are obvious and sensible limits. With existing laws at the highest level often overlooked how can the poor soul who has been volunteered to ref on a Sunday morning be expected 'to be on top' of the situation at grassroots level.  

Post #3095
Posted 24/08/2010 15:43:37
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At this age they won't know where they will end up playing, they haven't finished growing etc, however you will also find that the bigger lads at present will end up in the forwards.  Apart from the FR, who are a breed on their own and have a different mental attitude to the other boys and will want to be their for a variety of reasons.  We have a philosophy that numbers on shirts are for the set piece only, once the second/third phase is over (ie FR breaking from a scrum would be aiming for the second phase) all of the players should be able to do everything..... we accept that the outside backs will be quicker more nimble and this probably applies to the inside backs as well but they should be able to ruck maul at phases and when they're not in the line then the forwards must be able to fill in and catch run pass as well as anyone else. 

I was a 9 or 10 but we build our FR up to be the most important players in the team...... everything starts with them.  At junior rugby a scrum usually happens fairly quickly in the game and if they can dominate the scrum and use their weight strength at the contact areas to good effect it can have a morale draining effect on the opposition.  This gives the backs a lift as well.  Without the forwards the backs have no ball...... We have spent alot of time with the FR making sure they are technically proficient and it has paid dividends.... we have scored endless tries from ball taken against the head and has also got the team out of trouble at defending 5m scrums...... this is always acknowledged by the rest of the team and you should see the smiles on the FR faces when try scoring wingers congratulate them.

We have also taken to playing the centres in the back row and backrow in the centres, we do the same with BR and SR as well.  We are always changing the backs around as well, it gives them an appreciation of what other team members are doing.  We've also played our 1st choice FR at 8, 9 and 10..... it builds their confidence with ball in hand.

I don't think one size fits all as it depends on your players and why they play but a thought...... we always play touch which the "flyers" can be better equipped to play but to balance it we also do a backs against forwards mauling/rucking wrestling session as well just to even it up.  We rarely break into forwards and backs they provide opposition against each other when practicing LO's and back plays. 

I'm not sure how you do it but it's about recognising the strengths/weaknesses of each other within the team environment, if the coaches don't buy into that I don't see how boys can.

Post #3097
Posted 24/08/2010 21:03:41
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Thanks for your input Tryer. Still concerned about illegalities at the scrum at junior level. Concerned that players don't have the rugby experience and emotional maturity to fully understand the consequences of their actions. Factor in refs preoccupied with backs straying offside and not the scrum, all concerned therefore ill served.
Post #3103
Posted 25/08/2010 09:23:38
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Firstly, young players, ie children will do what they're shown/taught.  Therefore everything should be legal and safe.  If FR players are being taught/shown illegal and potentially unsafe practices then their coaches are letting them down seriously.  We've all cheated, some believe it's part of the game but this tends to happen as adults when we know the correct way to do things. 

At your players age is there a FR player who is confident enough to talk to ref about the things that shouldn't be happening?  As a coach if it gets that bad do you draw attention to it with the ref at an appropriate time?

Post #3107
Posted 25/08/2010 09:32:49
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there are enough legal tricks to be concentrating on w/out getting into nefarious activities.

And those shouldn't be started until (IMO) EVERYBODY involved can scrummage well and efficiently - which means primarily all have a good basic scrummage position, can cover at least two positions (for cover and development [1]), are tight and flat as a unit, and everybody pushes (spines in line etc) - and has a cohesive shove whilst working well with the put-in.

If you have reached the position as a junior coach whereby you pack can do all this in spades and has all the legal tricks, the congratulations! Now you can move onto another area of the game that they need improving ... can they all lift in the lineout, and most of them throw for starters! :-)

didds

[1] e.g. front rows can prop and hook, or hook and flank, 2nd rows can also prop or flank/#8, and back rows can also lock.
Post #3108
Posted 25/08/2010 21:15:11
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Last season we played a team where both props drove inwards and across our front row. Clearly and illegal tactic.It was effective in as much as it disrupted our scrum to the point where it collapsed on a few occasions. For our props to counter such measures they would also have engage in illegal activity, something I will not teach. I was expecting such things at maybe u16s upwards but not at u13s or u14s. Am I within my rights to bring such things to the attention of the ref and in doing so stop the game?
Post #3122
Posted 26/08/2010 08:18:06
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crookedfeed, IMO the answer is "no, you should not bring it to the ref".  The team captain should.

I suggest you teach your FR to understand when the opposition is engaging in illegal activity.  If they are subjected to cheating, to then inform the team captain, (or forwards captain), who then formally advises the ref of the situation.  In my experience, if the boys use this technique of communication, the ref will very likely judge in favour of your team.  3 straight arm penalties later, any advantage the cheats were trying to get would be nullified.  Cheats never prosper.

So basically it is about teaching what is fair (and what is not), and good communication.  In rugby, just as in life.

Post #3124
Posted 26/08/2010 09:12:57
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Agree with GE, however the oppo may not have been deliberately cheating, they may not have been coached on what is expected them.  This is where ref's at junior levels also become coaches.

If the ref takes no action following the captains comments, then for safety reasons I also think you must bring it to the refs attention.  But again this must be done at a suitable and appropriate time, for example offering a drink to the ref at downtime.

Post #3128
Posted 26/08/2010 11:36:09
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well, I'll disagree ... slightly.

YES, you could try and educate your FRs so they recognise when things are not going quite correctyly as the laws.

BUT... these are still children, and coaches have a duty of care to them. If you KNOW something is amiss then you have a DUTY to deal with it.

You are going to be on a pretty sticky wicket if things ever came to a head trying to explain how whilst you KNEW that the oppo FR was acting illegally (deliberately or otherwise) you as an adult in a position of responsibility did NOTHING about it and left to to the child to deal with.

didds
Post #3129
Posted 26/08/2010 12:10:35
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didds, of course you would not stand by and allow dangerous practice to occur.  I have merely pointed out how the situation should be dealt with in an ideal world, where the FR know the rules.  My point is that as coaches we should be teaching them right and wrong, so they can fend for themselves.

But certainly as young players they may not know the rules, and may not know how to resolve the situation.  In that case, it would be wrong not to try to intervene.  But how do coaches intervene in this situation properly?  IMO yelling at the ref from the sideline is not the way to do it.

On Sunday my boys are playing in a Grand Final, and the rules of the competition strictly forbid me (as coach) to be on the field or to interact with the players or officials.  How then would I resolve this situation under the competition rules?  The answer is to communicate with the team captain using runners, or when replacement players are interchanged.  The communication with the ref MUST occur through the team captain.

Post #3131
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