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Forum Guru
 
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Last Login: 19/03/2011 21:45:42
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| The age group to which I'm attached have been heavily involved on the festival circuit over the last few seasons. Clearly some festivals attract some competitive outfits, what is noticeable is the amount of instruction from the sidelines from animated coaches.One side in particular has 2 coaches running opposite touchlines calling virtually all the plays, this side has been very successful. A local rivals of ours has an entirely different approach, all players rotate and games are seen as an extension of training, they are not successful in terms of silverware won but they have over 40 players regularly available, they also have high retention rates throughout the age grades. Incidentally you rarely see any of the coaching team smiling in the competitive outfit, my question is simple, in the long term does a highly prescriptive approach to coaching work? Surely a naturally talented, well motivated player needs little coaching. Incidentally this winning outfit actively recruits the best players, in a sense it is representative side, it also has little to no relationship with its B side.
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Supreme Being
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One side in particular has 2 coaches running opposite touchlines calling virtually all the plays, this side has been very successful.
take those coaches away and how successful are those lads?
The proof of the pudding is not what silverware is won at (say) U14 but what those players can achieve 7 years later - by which time very few of them will have those coaches for a variety of reasons.
didds
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Supreme Being
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Surely a naturally talented, well motivated player needs little coaching.
Very possibly. But IMO a less talented, reasonably motivated player still has a place in the game, and may indeed need coaching. Clubs finances depend on third XV players - if they are never felt included at U14 what's the chance of them still being around 7 years later to fill that 3rd XV?
didds
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| Precisely. Relates to themes about what is rugby about. From my perspective as a coach, anyone who has desire to play the game is deserving of time and encouragement. As mentioned in other posts rugby to some extent is going the way of football in terms of coaches and parents having 'stars in their eyes' which regards ambition. My hope is that all players in my age group fulfill their potential and develop a lifelong love of the game.
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Good question, because it makes you consider a number of other questions.
Primary among these would be what is the purpose of youth rugby. I would say that the purpose is to produce good rugby players, who enjoy playing rugby. I think there is a damaging tendency for youth coaches to focus on producing good teams.
However, this distinction is a not clear cut: a good player is a good team player or a liability. However the example you make, of coaches calling the plays, is a classic example of coaching the team, rather than the players. It may be acceptable (though difficult to implement) at an elite, adult level where the team's results come first, but at youth level it is preventing players developing the decision-making aspect of their play. At any level the ideal for coaching is that the players are able to internalise the skills/understanding so that the coach is slowly made redundant. This shows that the payers are learning! Rod Mc Queen talks about this in his autobiography. At the beginning of his tenure he found that after the leaders for defence and attack had spoken at half-time he normally had to add to or refine what they had said. By the time of the 1999 World Cup the players analysed the game in the same way as the coaches, and very little needed to be added.
Where I would disagree with you though is in labelling this overcoaching. It is not coaching, because it not leading to learning - it is more like managing, and of course good management will lead to good short term results. However, for me the results do not reflect what the aims of coaching at this level should be.
So overcoaching is where the long terming development of individuals is neglected in place of the short term goals of the team.
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Supreme Being
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| My philosophy of coaching is about creating an environment of discipline and fun....... the things any young person will experience and need in the workplace. When we set out coaching at U7 our primary objective, which hasn't changed U15 now, was to create a group of young men (when they got to 17/18) that were lifelong friends. Rugby was the excuse to achieve this. We have a number of good players and a good team. I'm not their to identify and coach elite players that's for someone else to do with the skill set to do it. My job is too teach the basics and lay the foundations so that if they do end up being good enough this can be built upon. I agree with other posters that it is a love of the game that will retain players when they reach adulthood and it's club players that will remain at the club and help maintain it's existence, the good ones have different aspirations and tend to move to the more successful club sides...... in my area anyway. As for overcoaching, I think calling plays from the sidelines can be viewed in 2 ways. Dictorial which gains nothing for the players or directional that they can learn from. Younger teams need more direction and can learn from a coaches call (move) from the sideline if they recognise the same situation next time but the coach has to give the players the opportunity to do this. By keeping quiet for a game these situations can be discussed afterwards. Can be difficult but IME getting players talking on the pitch is the most challenging aspect of coaching.
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| I think it is important to state that even in my circumstances my coaching experience has been mainly a positive one and that the majority of clubs I've had dealings with are good people doing their best. It is a relevant point that many coaches coach as managers, that is often what they do for living, at a local club nearby there such an advanced hierarchy that they have a 'Director of Rugby' for one junior age group. I think this approach is encouraged within the coaching pathway. What I have a problem with is an over emphasis on winning at an early age, before the basics have been mastered, before you have a real understanding of what kind of player you are, before even you've finalised a position or 2 for yourself. Most clubs/schools will have strong age groups and often this is due to luck and in some cases recruiting, some coaches take the credit regardless. There are common themes throughout my posts. I agree that unless the desire to learn and/or succeed is internalised then players will always be looking for instruction. It is interesting those Premiership Academy players being loaned out to lower league outfits, for all their impressive stats etc. by playing away from their usual environment, they learn to be a rugby player. Thanks for the responses, I feel better eqiupped to deal with this issue.
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Supreme Being
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I have to say crookedfeed, you have really got us all thinking in the short time you have been on board. From a personal and professional viewpoint, I would love to know more about you; how long you have been coaching, whether you are still playing etc but please don't hold me to it  .I have been involved with both situations and as a psychologist, I was not able to avoid profiling both mindsets; from both coach and player perspectives. Obviously, this is an ongoing process as we do not stop learning until we die but I have to say I have a strong belief that there is a place for both situations; 'horses for courses'. It is wrong to say that having plays shouted out is not a learning environment... having them enforced is a different matter all together. People do not learn the same way, for example, how many out there learned their times tables by just doing... over and over again? How many needed to stop and think them through to get them?  As long as there is an alternative, it has got to be great. I know a lot of guys who wanted to play rugby for the comeraderie. That is not to say that they were not serious and did not want to win, but they wanted to do their best in a friendly, fun environment, where the social side was just as important as the serious stuff on the pitch. I also know guys who are so focussed, where playing and winning is the be all and end all of life; the mere thought of being substituted would cause a mental and emotional shutdown. Of course, we could talk all day about whether we should be dealing with this kind of mindset rather than providing for their needs but I am also reminded that everyone of these guys is now playing Premiership and some International rugby. I was involved, in various capacities throughout the years, with a team from the age of 6. At the age of 13, there were 49 players in the team. At the age of 20, there are only two still at the club. Some fell away when study became serious, or girls started to look interesting, some moved away to secure work at 16 and 18 and the rest are at University; quite a few playing for the Uni teams.
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Supreme Being
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| When is coaching over coaching? Simple answer: When it impedes the development of the players. One of the great joys of rugby is the reward for good decisions. As in life we learn good from bad in two ways: Taking advice from others (ie. on the practice field) or the school of hard knocks (ie. during a match). At match time I like to see the players reading the game and making those decisions. Then we review them at the break, full time and the next practice. I buy into player-centric coaching and it is hugely rewarding to see the players embrace the mental aspects of the game as that is such a large part of the games appeal. I now coach from U-13 thru U-19 so I can't speak for the youngest age groups.
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Supreme Being
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crookedfeed (25/08/2010)I think this approach is encouraged within the coaching pathway.
I'm not so sure... certainly my experience up to L2 (which I took in Oct 2006... I think!) is of an inclusive approach more directed at a ask/delegate way of coaching rather than coaching to win.
Even at L3 its more about YOU as a coach and what you know rather than whether you coach to win. More focussed towards maximising your chances of your team winning.
crookedfeed (25/08/2010)
What I have a problem with is an over emphasis on winning at an early age, before the basics have been mastered, before you have a real understanding of what kind of player you are, before even you've finalised a position or 2 for yourself.
and there I am in complete agreement.
To quote one ex-player (aged 12) - "Why would I want to be in the B team? I'd rather go and find my mates from school".
didds
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