|
|
|
Supreme Being
Group: Moderators
Last Login: 02/02/2012 14:47:41
Posts: 341,
Visits: 1,835
|
|
| A number of different opinions are flying around about the effectiveness of the new laws in the front row. Some current players are frustrated and some have gone as far as to say that it is dangerous. It has posed new challenges for coaches in terms of coaching the engagement, especially for tall props who find the touch engage more difficult. I have been talking to lots of props at all levels and would be interested to hear what others have found from coaching the new laws. Of course schools coaches might have some interesting feedback to give to their senior colleagues.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Newbie
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 27/11/2009 16:18:29
Posts: 3,
Visits: 21
|
|
| not sure if the engagement is more dangerous, don't think its any less dangerous either though and as it was brought in to make the scrum safer it probably hasn't worked. I coach at youth and junior level so would love to hear from front row players why they think it is more dangerous.
|
|
|
|
|
Supreme Being
Group: Administrators
Last Login: 06/01/2012 09:46:25
Posts: 123,
Visits: 1,365
|
|
From what I understand, one aspect of the safety issue at the higher level is that many front rows feel less balanced under the new laws, particularly when going into the engagement. I've been told that in some cases their second row colleagues are practically holding them up. I don't know if this is unsafe, but I certainly would expect props and hookers to have more control than this.
Toby Curthoys
Publisher, Better Rugby Coaching www.betterrugbycoaching.com
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Newbie
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 29/05/2007 14:43:42
Posts: 2,
Visits: 1
|
|
| The Laws seem to be for safety, but there is little to no safety when the frontrow especially the hooker is off balance, with no way of protecting himself at impact apart from holding onto his props. as i hooker, i feel the old way was better, in the fact that both hookers can decide where they want their pack placed, however the referee should draw both packs together if he feels there will be a cavalry charge at the engage. it seemed to work better that way, and there was little to no reset scrums in my good old 3rd team league, so why should the big boys in the prem etc need to reset so much. dc
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Newbie
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 18/05/2010 09:24:07
Posts: 2,
Visits: 21
|
|
As a playing hooker (now veteran but ex county standard) and a senior / junior coach my main concern as far as safety goes is the possibility of too narrow a gap between the front rows. We all need time to pick our spot and to adjust if something changes. In my experience, referees are insisting on us starting too close. For the first time in a long playing career I am often feeling vulnerable and have had more minor head clashes and compressions this season than would be usual.
Also, due to the enforced closeness, it is harder to attain a good body position at the "hit" so that the shock/force is transmitted through a straight back. The change in geometry and timing means that my previous starting position leaves me too high at the hit as my feet are now further forward than I would like. I have found that I can end up with a curved back now if I am not careful. This can mean sometimes unavoidably taking the contact on the back of my neck - definitely not to be advised!
To counter this, I have to "sit" before engaging in a much lower position than I did before so that I can still drive slightly upwards at the hit. Previously I would have naturally arrived at a good, "comfortable" dynamic body position.
I find that I often have to move my feet now just after the hit - not something that I want to do (nor do I think it good for me as I would like a "straight" body/leg stance to transmit the shock to the floor). Unless the pack is trained to "pull back" this is nearly inevitable now.
Finally, I find that my shoulder positioning options are reduced as part of not having that fraction of a second of time to adjust during the engage.
My suggestion to refereeing would be that the props should touch on the upper arms , not the shoulders, which is what we are seeing mostly anyway.
Wynner
Wynner
|
|
|
|
|
Supreme Being
Group: Moderators
Last Login: 02/02/2012 14:47:41
Posts: 341,
Visits: 1,835
|
|
| It is interesting to hear the views of hookers - most of the comments I have had are from tall props. They have to sit before engagement and are often at a considerable disadvantage. It is also notable that international sides are spring loading their packs to drive in (Mike Cron technique et al.)
|
|
|
|
|
Junior Member
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 01/07/2010 11:16:53
Posts: 11,
Visits: 46
|
|
Steve Wynne (29/05/2007)
We all need time to pick our spot and to adjust if something changes. In my experience, referees are insisting on us starting too close. For the first time in a long playing career I am often feeling vulnerable and have had more minor head clashes and compressions this season than would be usual.
I am a hooker too and this has hit the nail on the head.
Some of the referees at the level I play at (grass roots' roots  ), are so unsure, that they have us setting far too close, so that when we touch, we are almost engaging the scrummage. To counter this, some opposition front rows (mainly their loosehead) are taking a step back, after the touch. Which flies in the face of the touch - you set the distance, then move. Hmmm...
Also, some oppositions complain that our front row are too far away, before the touch has happened. I am constantly pointing out that the point of the touch is to get a measure on a distance.
Were these laws put into place to appease the Super 14 teams and the Australian national team, who (Carl Hayman aside) don't seem to scrummage well...
Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance - Sun Tzu
|
|
|
|
|
Supreme Being
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 17/01/2012 20:00:07
Posts: 213,
Visits: 505
|
|
Dan, when you refer to Mike Cron etc are you referring to the techniques described in this article - http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/rugby/84/? Eggshell scrums etc.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Newbie
Group: Forum Members
Last Login: 05/09/2011 18:07:55
Posts: 4,
Visits: 16
|
|
| As a loosehead who has also played a fair amount at lock, I think the new engagement sequence will require some getting used to, but doesn't really power down the scrum. Apart from top-level rugby, the scrums weren't starting much more than an arms-length apart before anyway. Hip and ankle flexibility are key in order to get the prop's butts low enough without having a rounded back. As with any change in the ref's cadence, timing is an issue, and many front rowers haven't flattened their back before the hit, or dropped their hips lower than their shoulders in time in order to avoid a collapse. Now that a few months have gone by, front rows should have adjusted, and collapses should be less common than previous years
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is who you are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are" - John Wooden
|
|
|
|
|
Supreme Being
Group: Moderators
Last Login: 02/02/2012 14:47:41
Posts: 341,
Visits: 1,835
|
|
| The Mike Cron stuff is outlined in the coachesinfo article. Basically spring loading the front rows. Experienced front rows will know that such a manoeuvre requires: 1. A good ref 2. A stable ground 3. Lots of training 4. A compliant opposition (a side that can at least scrummage) I am just about to do a five week programme with the Osprey Under 16 pack concentrating on scrum and lineout. Number 1 priority, maximising body position at engagement so players can cope with all the pushing, pulling and general awkwardness of the opposition. Then we will move to units together (prop, lock, flanker) and eventually to eight man. There are some principles, but also there needs to be flexibility in approach. A lot of it will be based on Secrets of the Front Row which I updated for the new laws.
|
|
|
|