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| The defending 9 has 3 options at a scrum:- 1. stand next to the opposition 9 and follw the ball round, remaining on-side and within close proximity of the scrum 2. stand along the line of the hindmost foot of his scrum, usually the 8, anywhere across the pitch. or 3. retire to the 5m offside line, with the rest of the 3/4's.
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| So do you also agree that my 9 can only take up that position once the ball has been hooked,therefore won,as Stuart suggests,
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| Thanks, guys for all your input. I took the inferred advice that asking the ref is best. Saturday I (almost laboriously) clarified his view which was that SH either follows his oppo OR he retreats 5m with the rest of the backs until the ball is out (not hooked). Our SH was happy and never pinged. Later on Saturday I watched some Heineken Cup (or le Ache Cup as Byron Kelleher put it) and defending SH's were clearly allowed the retreat to the 8's back foot option as well. Same game - same hymn sheet? From my point of view we'll just go with the flow as whatever each individual ref wants he gets! Curiously our chappie on Saturday is the 2nd in as many matches to not understand the geometry of SH putting the ball in straight...is this a trend??
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GourouxPete (12/10/2009)
Thanks, guys for all your input. I took the inferred advice that asking the ref is best.
Saturday I (almost laboriously) clarified his view which was that SH either follows his oppo OR he retreats 5m with the rest of the backs until the ball is out (not hooked). Our SH was happy and never pinged.
Later on Saturday I watched some Heineken Cup (or le Ache Cup as Byron Kelleher put it) and defending SH's were clearly allowed the retreat to the 8's back foot option as well. Same game - same hymn sheet?
From my point of view we'll just go with the flow as whatever each individual ref wants he gets! Curiously our chappie on Saturday is the 2nd in as many matches to not understand the geometry of SH putting the ball in straight...is this a trend??This thing about putting the ball in straight is a bugbear of mine. Let's put my personal slant on it.
I was taught as a ref, my priorities are Safety, Equity and Law, in that order.
Safety - There are over 40 offences that can be committed at scrum time. I look first to protect the front row - Safety. Binding, boring, twisting, dipping or forcing up can all have an effect on the safety of the front row. So after I've looked at that, I may have time to consider the angle of the put in.
Equity - is there a fair competition for the ball - not if Safety is compromised, no.
Law - by the time I've got to here, the ball is now back in open play.
I've discussed this point with several notable names from the world of refereeing, such as Chris White, Wayne Barnes and Tony Spreadbury. They tend to concur.
Stu
Touchline Official, Worcester Warriors RFC
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| Hi Guys, Thank you for your input to my question.This is what happened in my game last week. I also thought i'd go with the ref.This was his interpretation.My 9 can retire once the ball is hooked.In line with the rear foot, on the left of the scrum,BUT,not more than 2m from the scrum. I am also in contact with a friend in Devon over this matter.At the Torquay game on Saturday were an assessor and the head referee developement officer for the SW.This is his interpretation. My 9 can retire to the rear foot,BUT,only on the right side. Surely this is not acceptable.All these different view points could have an adverse effect on a result.I take exception to the fact that as a coach i am at the mercy of the interpretation of whoever is refereeing.To my mind,he is there to referee the game as it unfolds.I should not have to tell my players at the last minute,what we are doing this week at scrum defence depending on the referee.It means that we are being told how to play.That can never be right. This needs to be cleard up.What do you think Dan/Didds ? David.
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| Hi Stuart, Last week we were continually pinged for pushing before the ball came in.The fact was that the oppo scrum could not handle our,'Engage'.Despite my captain talking to the referee,we were still pinged.At half time,i had to tell my pack to use certain methods.This they did and we were not pinged for the remainder of the game.In conversation with the referee after the game,i explained all this to him.His reply was,'I am learning'.Everyone has to learn,i have no issue with that and in the end it did not effect the result.I was dissapointed we got no free kicks for not putting the ball in.I would like to know how you handle a similar situation. David.
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In the first place, I believe I have a reasonably good command of the scrum, but I have a unique advantage - I am a fourth official in the Premiership, and have been able to discuss things in detail with professional refs, and professional forwards coaches.
If one side is not taking the hit, I will recognise this from their backs - they will arch at the moment of engagement, which indicates their starting position is incorrect. I'll ping it, warn them, and if it happens again, free kick them.
Next scrum, if it happens again, immediate FK, no warning.
Next time, PK with a n advisory - "you are limiting my options", and if it happens again, YC for repeat offending
So how can I tell if it's an early drive? If the scrum moves one way and then back the other, it indicates one has gone early and the other is countering.
Am I givig away the black art of reffing the scrum here?
Stu
Touchline Official, Worcester Warriors RFC
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david wiggins (13/10/2009)
Hi Guys,
Thank you for your input to my question.This is what happened in my gamelast week.
I also thought i'd go with the ref.This was his interpretation.My 9 can retire once the ball is hooked.In line with the rear foot, on the left of the scrum,BUT,not more than 2m from the scrum.
Iam also in contact with a friend in Devon over this matter.At the Torquay game on Saturday were an assessor and the head referee developement officer for the SW.This is his interpretation.
My 9 can retire to the rear foot,BUT,only on the right side.
Surely this is not acceptable.All these different view points could have an adverse effect on a result.I take exception to the fact that as a coach i am at the mercy of the interpretation of whoever is refereeing.To my mind,he isthere to referee the game as it unfolds.I should not have to tell my players at the last minute,what we are doing this week at scrum defence depending on the referee.It means that we are being told how to play.That can never be right.
This needs to be cleard up.What do you think Dan/Didds ?
David.
20.12 OFFSIDE AT THE SCRUM
(a) When the scrum is set, the scrum half not throwing the ball into the scrum must take up a
position either at the same side of the scrum as the scrum half throwing in the ball or
behind the offside line defined for other players.
(b) Offside for scrum-halves. When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of that
team is offside if both feet are in front of the ball while it is still in the scrum. If the scrum
half has only one foot in front of the ball, the scrum half is not offside.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(c) When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of the opposing team is offside if
that scrum half steps in front of the ball with either foot while the ball is still in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(d) The scrum half whose team does not win possession of the ball must not move to the
opposite side of the scrum and overstep the offside line. For that scrum half that runs
through the hindmost foot of that player’s team in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(e) The scrum half whose team does not win possession of the ball must not move away from
the scrum and then remain in front of the offside line. For that scrum half that runs through
the hindmost foot of that player’s team in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(f) Any player may be scrum half, but a team can have only one scrum half at each scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the offside line
(g) Offside for players not in the scrum. Players who are not in the scrum and who are not
the team’s scrum half, are offside if they remain in front of their offside line or overstep the
offside line which is a line parallel to the goal lines and 5 metres behind the hindmost player
of each team in a scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the offside line
(h) If the hindmost foot of a team is on or behind that team’s goal line, the offside line for
scrum halves and non-participants is the goal line.
(i) Loitering. When a scrum is forming, players not taking part in it must retire to their offside
line without delay. If they do not, they are loitering. Loiterers must be penalised.
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the offside line Here's a linkhttp://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/law_20_en.pdf
Sorry for such a lengthy quote from law, but it's worth reiterating - this isn't about interpretation. The law is clear on who may go where. You're offside or you're not.
Stu
Touchline Official, Worcester Warriors RFC
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| Stuart, thanks. This is clear now and provided our SH follows his oppo or stays in his quadrant on a lost ball all will be well. He'll no doubt continue to pester his oppo, which is good. He'll need to consider other options if the other side do a lot of pick and drives from 8, but can play that on the hoof. I agree with the scrutinising order of priority at scrums; and crooked feeds are much harder to discern than not straight at lineouts. A ref keen to let the game flow will probably view the set pieces more as restarts than mini-contests, although this is disappointing. Certainly at our level there are many more lineouts than scrums in a game for instance. 2 weeks ago though, the opposition SH's feet were sometimes 45deg to the line of the tunnel which was a massive clue. Having said that, in that game their entire front row were up to a whole range of tricks as well....so the ref must have been a full back when he was a player!! Perhaps a crash course in the dark arts might help him before someone starts quoting phrases like duty of care.
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GourouxPete (13/10/2009)
2 weeks ago though, the opposition SH's feet were sometimes 45deg to the line of the tunnel which was a massive clue. Having said that, in that game their entire front row were up to a whole range of tricks as well....so the ref must have been a full back when he was a player!! Perhaps a crash course in the dark arts might help him before someone starts quoting phrases like duty of care.Dark Arts indeed. It's a bugbear at every level of the game that refs who used to be backs, don't get forward play. That changed for me when I did my level 2 coaching course - which took me out of my comfort zone somewhat!
Stu
Touchline Official, Worcester Warriors RFC
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