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dale36 (07/01/2010)
Hi all, first post for me. I am a qualified weight lifting instructor as well as a rugby coach. I am now 41, and have been weightlifting since I was 15. This is something that I feel very strongly about, and get peed off with when people say that you shouldn't train under the age of 16. Sorry if this sounds a bit strong as my first post, but to me, this is a dinosaurs point of view. Just look at the American High Schools and their Football players. They are years in front of us when it comes to this discipline. The routine I gave them is outlined below, and is based around machines rather than free weights. This was looked at from a safety point of veiw. However, I am not opposed to free weights, as they help build core strength and stability. 2 DAY WEEK COMPLETE BODY ROUTINE MONDAY & FRIDAY
LEG EXENSIONS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPSLYING LEG CURLS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPSWIDE LAT PULLDOWN 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS CHEST PRESS MACHINE 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS PREACHER MACHINE BICEP CURLS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS TRICEPS CABLE PRESS or BENCH DIPS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS SEATED CALF PRESS 3 SETS X 15 REPS BENT KNEE ABDOMINAL CRUNCH 1 SET X 15 REPS Sorry for the rant all, but this is something I believe any aspiring young player should be doing, if they want to get on. Couldnt agree more on getting young players started on Strength training- in my humble opinion, 'Strength' is the most disrespected aspect of Rugby coaching- we all chase after Skills, Speed, Agility, 'Explosiveness' but none of these components can be developed without strength...(a skillful player who is weak will not make it to the highest levels) HOWEVER...  the program above concerns me as lots of the exercises are ' isolation' exercises (beach/ show muscles instead of functional/ go muscles!) Rugby players particularly need to be engaging in large muscle/ whole body strength training exercises e.g. strongman & olympic lifting & their derivatives (bearing in mind that we're not all qualified/ experienced in S & C) I had a long running 'discussion' (argument is probably a better description!) with a lovely man who was an international rugby team strength coach re: resistance training methodology- my argument was that testing rugby players' strength with traditional measures like Bench press & Squat 1RM for example is pointless- when does a rugby player ever 'squat' or 'bench' in a game? But rather finding like/ similar activities to measure would be more beneficial e.g High pull/ clean & jerk would be a good measure of strength in forwards as it is similar to the action required to lift a player in a lineout... vertical jump would be a good strength/ power measure for forwards who jump in lineouts etc... certainly made for interesting conversations over a few beers & barbecued meat!
Rugbia floreat ubique
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| I do like the fact that you guys train with your sons & have taken a level headed approach, even if the methodology differs- the end result is the same... young players being given a complete set of tools to 'have a go' with. Quite correctly pointed out that not all players will make it to the highest level, but imagine how much better the highest level will be (as well as the reduction in injuries) if we have well conditioned 'weekend warriors' playing recreational rugby!? Lets face it, rugby is not the kind of sport you can play 'socially' without a measure of conditioning (oh yes you can... i forgot about kiss catchers, i mean Touch rugby! ) so standing on the side of Science & common sense, I think coaches who advocate strength training are on the right track, just important that the METHOD is safe, effective & ENHANCES rather than REDUCES in the long term... I love the idea of cross training for youth (apart from the scientific basis: skill acquisition & transfer; energy system development; neural stimulation and development etc. it just makes SENSE!- remember all the trees, rivers, choppers, fences us old guys used to climb, swim, ride, jump etc that todays youth might be able to identify on a good day!?) Martial arts are great for discipline, mental & physical toughness in young players. I would also love to check out the transfer from horse riding to rugby... balance, rythm, courage, muscular endurance... NICE!
Rugbia floreat ubique
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Forum Newbie
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| Red & Black Fan, some fair comments.
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| The horse riding is quite an interesting one. All the riders i have played with/coached have all be excellent line out jumpers, perhaps they're transferring their balance and rhythm, but they all have a good core strength and good leg/ankle muscles. Spending that much time in a stress position standing on supports the size of a marker pen must do something good. I think you hit the nail on the head with the amount of time kids spend getting exersize whilst playing. I heard a story this week of two brothers sitting in sperate rooms, playing on sperate X-boxes, but playing against each other on line. Where are we going?
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Some very good posts for and apparently against -
Over the last 15 years I have coached rugby full time in Thailand, the UK and then Singapore as a schools coach in Asia and both schools and club in the UK and we found that there were no proven facts for and against - with regard to the use of both strength training and weight training so we decided to test the facts and benefits of the both
Strength training - From age 13 we used both body weight and machine based activities - all supervised and diarised (allowed us to change the programs to suit the time of the year and the minimal and maximum programs) the machines were those we find in every public fitness facility.
average was - 2 sets 15 and 10 reps increasing by 1 plate (average) when changing down in reps. - 8 machines and exercise variations per session
At age 14 and after 12 months on the strength training we moved to a combination of Strength and weight training - and by weight training we mean free weights using bar , smith machine and dumbells (variations)
These programs were and still are coupled with SAQ programs to ensure that the players do have stability , joint strength and flexibility , speed training (running style training) and some plyometric activities
At age 14 the majority of the free weight work was done initially with the bar only ( and that includes the dumbells (or a 1 - 2 kg weight)
during this period players are taught shoulder injury recovery and rehab work - and it is used as a part of the actual training program (provides both joint strength and flexibility) The bar only activity is to ensure that they work in a controlled manner using perfect technique and perfect weights room etiquette (towels, spotters, replacement of weights etc)
At age 15 and with all of the above completed they are faster stronger and more resilient in a contact environment - and that was the aim - it was not size - bulking up nor was it to produce gym junkies
While the program was running they were and are still required to investigate all of the powders and assistance that are available to them , to weigh up the pro's and cons of the various legal additives and discuss them with their coaches and teachers before considering there use - to the point that some of them have written papers for the school on the legalities and side effects of there use. (not many use anything but Baby Milk powder and milk shakes made from that. (water, powder,bananas, sweet syrups, ice cubes before bed and after training)
Strength and weight training coupled with SAQ , some plyometrics, and swimming and recovery work , speed and running training all added to their skills training have produced 12 out of 15 wins in the national schools age group trophies (over 5 years) for their school and in excess of 40% of all national selection at age and now senior levels are from the one school
This program works in both Singapore and Thailand and now we have the opportunity to apply it back in australia so yes - strength and weight training are required in the game and provide benefits across the board, the average player was between 5 and 10kg heavier than his opponent from another school or club - and when they travelled to european countries they were no longer outweighed.
Note: We had with us an orthopedic surgeon who assisted in the checking of all students year by year , and he produced papers for the Medical Association in Singapore on the benefits and of the program and the reduction in injuries over the same period - it was a staggering 60% reduction across the board.
A well travelled scot holding level 3 with RFU, ARU AND IRB
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Have followed this trend with interest. As a research scientist at the sharp end I firmly come down on the side of weight training is safe for U16s, BUT only if the athletes are taught correct technique and the load they lift is carefully monitored to ensure that technique is maintained. The name of the game at U16 is to build slowly and steadily and focus on compound, posterior chain exercises coupled with general gymnastic movements. The introduction of unilateral movements can also be incorporated to improve proprioception.
The simple fact of the matter is that other elements of fitness for rugby, such as speed and agility cannot be improved sufficiently without a good strength base so that the athletes are able to control their own body weight perfectly.
I am convinced that a large number of ACL injuries could be prevented if correct technique is taught to younger athletes.
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Supreme Being
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Could not agree with you more nige1980!
A great post Jock312; would love to see any detailed results from the research.
I started this business as a coach and soon realised that S&C was a must so qualified as a Strength & Conditioning Practitioner. I had no problems training guys from U13s and, as I have said in another post, have well respected colleagues who will train from 10 years old.
However, the more I got around this business, the more I saw the abuse... hence the retraining as a soft tissue specialist and injury pathologist, which now takes up 100% of my time. Fortunately, none of my trainees have ever needed to lie on my couch  .
The problem is the quality of training and your experience Jock312 is fantastic; every consideration was put in place from both the physiological and psychological aspects. You ensured there was a professional support team on hand for all eventualities and strict periodic, specific testing was carried out. It's a no brainer, of course these guys are going to have a huge edge of others who do not have similar training.
However, it should also be a no brainer, that performed incorrectly, without such prodigious care does cause issues.
Red & Black Fan was also correct in his concerns regarding isolation training. Not only is this not functional, it is a waste of time with sport specificity in mind. Bodybuilding methods belong to body builders... weightlifting methods are the only way to go; training strength and power in movement, not muscles and muscle mass is never a substitute for using the muscles correctly.
- ***********************************************************
- Biomechanist/Performance Analyst
- Level 5 Soft Tissue Therapist
- Certified Personal Trainer: Advanced Gym Instructor/Level 3 Fitness Assessor
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Supreme Being
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when does a rugby player ever 'squat' or 'bench' in a game?
the basic scrummaging position has many things in common with squats... but your point is nonetheless well made.
didds
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Supreme Being
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The most important thing to remember about isolation exercises is that strength is only gained in that particular plane of motion, for example, doing bicep curls does not make your upper arm strong except for at the angle of the curl so, unless you carry your shopping bag in the same position, it does not make you stronger for that particular task.
When you squat, you should do so vertically, hopefully, in the scrummage the back is more horizontal. This uses other muscles, which are not engaged and therefore not strengthened, during the squat. The muscles which are strengthened, will only be stronger in that plane of motion i.e. up and down, not forwards. You will also find that length of contraction, concentric and eccentric, is different in the two activities. The scrummage machine is the mechanism for strengthening the muscles required in the plane of motion required for this activity.
As for the bench press, most shoulder issues [dislocations, RC tears, fractures etc] I deal with are caused by poor bench press technique. The biggest problem I have, is with the bench itself. It 'fixes' the back, inhibiting the correct muscles from working. If you do not have the correct technique before lying on the bench, there is no way you are going to get it afterwards... hence, if any of my clients fail to perform press ups with good form, they do not go near a bench. I should say here that I have had quite a steady stream of certified personal trainers consult me with this very issue themselves .
There is no place in any sport for isolation exercises [well, possibly dance and some gymnastics], however, I know the young guys like to show off their beach muscles, so I tolerate them... in their own time, not mine.
- ***********************************************************
- Biomechanist/Performance Analyst
- Level 5 Soft Tissue Therapist
- Certified Personal Trainer: Advanced Gym Instructor/Level 3 Fitness Assessor
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| "the basic scrummaging position has many things in common with squats..." D'accord, Didds. Back and leg strength, core strength, balance. Even the weight being on the upper back gives it some of the feeling of being packed down. My tip to any rugby player would be - build your strength training around squats (with all the usual disclaimers about technique, supervision, working up etc).
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