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Forum Guru
 
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Last Login: 10/06/2010 12:40:18
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| Red & Black fan - there are always consequences to poor performance wiith regard to the game of Rugby Union i.e. loosing. Surely isn't that punishment enough. When you drop a ball or drop a pass during a game the consequence is not 5, 10 or 15 press ups - it could be 3, 5 or seven points. And to that end that is why I believe al coaching sessions should have positive outcomes, a dropped ball should not result in sit ups or press ups - for example - a defensive ruck arrangement would be a more realistic game related result. This would reinforce the T-Cup principle endoresd by Sir Clive Woodward. (His book entitled "Winning" is a must read for any coach). Jonesy
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I agree 100% with you Jonesy- creating a positive environment is crucial to the big picture of coaching, particularly coaching youth, BUT... my understanding of this discussion was that we were talking about the training environment and I have yet to come across the silver bullet that allows me to simulate the range of emotions associated with losing during/ after a bad training session (bad in the sense of poor skills/ lack of effort/ concerntration based on my knowledge of the players and their age & ability level) I am also loathe to use exercise as punishment (look at youth obesity levels & sedentarism in the developed world for starters) but if you manage your players' conditioning load in such a way that the sanctions are seen as part of training, it can work really well.I am also pretty certain that SCW, Martin Johnson et al did not shrug off poor skill execution in training with a simple 'bad luck old chap, try harder next time!'... In my humble opinion, there has to be consequence- the difference between a coach and very good one lies in the ability to empower the players to fix the mistakes and learn/ improve skill execution, while accepting the consequences of their errors and seeing the process in the context of the big picture. Obviously age & ability level play a role in the manner and level of sanctions applied- for example, I have experienced U16 schoolboys coming up with suggestions for sanctions on the training ground, which we applied as a team and enjoyed a measure of success (they won more games that season than in their U12/13/14/15 season combined!)
Rugbia floreat ubique
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Its up to us, the coaches, to determine why are players are making mistakes and choose the appropriate course of actions. If my boys are wandering and "taking the day off," then extra laps may be in order.
If boys are dropping balls, but working hard, well then, forget about it and move onto the next pass. Rugby is a game of mistakes and the last thing I want is for my players to dwell on them. React and attack on a drop ball / turnover.
I had a boy, who at the beginning of the season couldn't catch a ball to save his life. He, the team, and I knew it. He had a mental roadblock. I could have exercised him to death, instead, I sent him home with a ball. Here we are, two months later, and the kids hands have improved 100%.
The correct action must fit the mistake and lead to player improvement.
Josh Young
Head Coach
Eastside Lions U19
Bellevue, WA, USA
http://coachrugby.wordpress.com/
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| As a means of focusing the attention of teenagers who are mucking about it is effective when used as a short shock to refocus their attention. Mistakes are not punished at our practices, we use the philosophy mistakes happen thats how we grow. We stop, reassert what is the correct behaviour and move on. if the same mistakes occur again and again, we break it down to basics and build from the foundations up. U19's are at an age where they think they know it all, but sometimes a team huddle and pointing out the obvious works better. They need a sense of collective responsibility and their input needs to be valued. Guidance is better than punishment!!!!
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Jenks (04/02/2009)
Very true........... but depending on their mood they also drop the ball deliberately because they enjoy the wrestling (which can be linked to game situations) and it's fun particularly in the mud...... they also challenge us to see how long it will take before they wrestle. We both (kids and coaches) benefit from it........ except I always end up on the loosing end when it's my turn wrestling the ex-FR coach...... It's always difficult to explain, sometimes as they say you need to be there. true --that
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| I am coaching Junior Rugby League, I know this is a Rugby Union Discussion site so I hope you don't mind me joining in, I think this topic is similar for both codes of the game. I have worked with my side from under 9s and they are currently under 15s, at younger age groups we didn't use any kind of sanctions but used positive reinforcement. We stop the drill ask questions to assertain their understanding of what they are doing, give them some pointers and then send them back out to have another go. Last season we introduced a scale of different exercises dependent on how many balls they dropped in a drill. If you knock a ball on you then have to defend which is much harder work than attacking so all of the different exercises where defence related. Our ball retention last year went through the roof and it reinforced the principle of taking the correct option at the correct time, also defensively we improved due to all the defencive work that we did and the different drills that we used. The older age groups are able to concentrate for longer so as coaches we should push them to concentrate, when it breaks down make them do a drill that is still game related but much harder than what they where doing and concentration will improve.
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Supreme Being
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| I like what Geordie says here. We cannot let mistakes go unrecognised. There must be "pressure" to perform. It is how we apply that pressure that will lead to deeper learning experiences. A harder game-related "punishment" is actually game like as it is. Think about taking the wrong option the game and then having to defend for five minutes!
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Jonesy (02/02/2009)
I would be interested to hear other coaches views regarding the use of punishment e.g. press ups, sit ups etc when poor form has been shown in training sessions. I ask in particular with regard to Under 19's rugby and younger. Personally I do not find any merit in this practice. I would rather encourage and reinforce good practice. Jonesy I don't think any situation arises where any player, be they youth or senior - warrants being 'punished' with extra physical activity, rugby is a hard enough game as it is. If a player or players show poor performance, there could be any number of reasons for this. If there is an issue of a drop in confidence, then being punished will only serve to push the confidence lower and cause more of an issue with poor performance. In addition, I've seen so many occasions where players have been punished for poor performance, where the players have ended up treating the coach with contempt. I actually believe that punishment of poor performance actually shows a lack of coaching knowledge and ability. Much more beneficial for both the coach and player is 1 on 1 chats involving skill analysis, grouping poor performers together to discuss key points and where they think they're going wrong, what they need to do to put it right, and how we're going to measure it over the next few weeks. Physical exercise has its place within a strength and conditioning programme, not as a punishment for poor performance.
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geordie (25/05/2009)
I am coaching Junior Rugby League, I know this is a Rugby Union Discussion site so I hope you don't mind me joining in, I think this topic is similar for both codes of the game. I have worked with my side from under 9s and they are currently under 15s, at younger age groups we didn't use any kind of sanctions but used positive reinforcement. We stop the drill ask questions to assertain their understanding of what they are doing, give them some pointers and then send them back out to have another go. Last season we introduced a scale of different exercises dependent on how many balls they dropped in a drill. If you knock a ball on you then have to defend which is much harder work than attacking so all of the different exercises where defence related. Our ball retention last year went through the roof and it reinforced the principle of taking the correct option at the correct time, also defensively we improved due to all the defencive work that we did and the different drills that we used. The older age groups are able to concentrate for longer so as coaches we should push them to concentrate, when it breaks down make them do a drill that is still game related but much harder than what they where doing and concentration will improve. I agree. I think it comes down to drills Vs the game sense approach. Whenever I did drills in the past, I had problems with lack of concentration, dropped balls, missed tackles, poor passes etc. etc. I then changed the intense handling part of the session to games sense i.e. rugby netball, endball etc. the concentration levels rose, fewer poor passes and dropped balls and most importantly the lads ENJOYED it. Any 'punishment' was game related i.e turnover for dropped balls, and I progressed this to having the whole team sprint back to their tryline before being allowed back in the game, which was added pressure. I think if we take the view that there is always a reason why players perform poorly in a training session, then the most important question is Why?
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Supreme Being
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I progressed this to having the whole team sprint back to their tryline before being allowed back in the game, which was added pressure.
this is the sort of concept that I like - one question though... Do you perceive that once the team was giving up huge amounts of ground for a dropped pass that the players stopped taking any 50/50 type risks, and played only "safe" rugby? Just interested :-)
didds
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