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Supreme Being
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Forum Newbie
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| A tad over-complicated without any real extra benefits which a much simpler move done well could achieve the same outcomes in my opinion. I also wouldn't want the blind-side wing to be so obviously positioned at the set-up and would want him running a far more acute in-to-out line to get outside the fixed inside defence and then straighten once through. I tend to be a fan of the KISS method anyway as so many called moves break down due to factors outside of the backs control before they have even received the ball from the scrum-half!
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Forum Guru
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Emgee, although I understand your KISS thoughts, the beauty of Exeter IS just that - it IS simple. There are no difficult ball-handling skills required (unlike miss-passes, scissors, etc,.). The nice thing is that there are 3 players involved, all with clear roles - the 10 is the decoy, the 12 is the distributor - giving a short pass for simplicity, and the blind winger is the receiver. I'd like to add a support player for the blind wing - full back or the 13, but it looks difficult - it'll have to be the open flanker. Particularly in lower/less skilled levels, the number of open passes reaching the open wing in a season is limited, and moves like this get them involved.
If we could develop back play in the same way the SH teams have done, where there is almost always 1) a passer, 2) a receiver, 3) a decoy runner, and 4) a support player, the backs would feel far more involved, more significant parts of the team.
SteveJ
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Supreme Being
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From a defensive point of view it would be disappointing if this move worked. Given the time 12 spends on the ball he should get cleaned up by D12 before the final pass is made (nasty kidney shot a distinct possibility). If the defensive line push up hard as they should and put pressure on the move they should snuff it out. Against any half way competent defense the 12 would need to be 10m at the very least back from the dummy half to have space to do this. If the defenders hold their channels and are not phased by off the ball runners they should snuff it out. The Barbarians clip is a defensive horror show, a master class in how not to defend. The defenders just stood there and watched it happen. No urgency to get at the play, there were defenders within arms length of the pivot who just watched him dummy here and there. Defenders completely phased by a bit of off the ball running, caught like rabbits in the headlights. Very, very poor from professional players.
As noted elsewhere, timing will be key on this one, it needs to be very slick, at least as good as the Barbarians if not slicker. Run it about 100 times in training before wheeling it out, your 12's renal specialist will thank you for that!
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Supreme Being
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... but as long as the telling pass happens on "the tackle line" ie when defenders are committed then it stands a chance of success (as does any attempted move)?
Could be that the "tackle" line for this move is actually deeper than the usually accepted "tackle line" - but we are creating a line breaking move here - once breached the "lost" space from a deeper tackle line quickly gets regained.
Maybe we'd need to see examples of this move "failing" to better disect and discuss.
My concern would be the potential for a kidney smash on the #12 still...
didds
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Supreme Being
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Perhaps a way to achieve some depth would be to have 10 take the ball stood still and deliver an RL style standing pass to 12 before following it and looping. 12 also takes the ball stood still and does his thing where he stands. At least that way 10 and 12 do not compress their own space, it should get to the pivot quicker and arguably it might be easier for their team mates to time their runs etc off a static 12.
While I think about it - Dan, what is that software you used to animate the drill? It looks really good and is a very good way of explaining. I have been looking for something suitable but have not found anything that looks that good yet.
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Forum Guru
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I think the key to any move such as this is
a) what has happened before
b) what is you standard backs formation
because you cannot assess the effectiveness of a move such as this in isolation
a) I would not recommend running this move early in the game but after a similar move in which the ball went in a different direction - for example if you had recently or just run a move where the ball actually went to the first receiver on the loop - this way the opposition see the same basic movements and think hey I know this one the 1st receiver gets it back and they respond accordingly thereby adding to the effectiveness of the move. While not having run Exeter we have had success with running the loop then in the next 5 minutes running the dummy loop with the ball going to the Blind wing on the inside because the defence were already conditioned to follow the 1st receiver on his loop
b) You need a standard formation or shape to your attack - with the Brumbies this often involved the BW behind the 10 and the FB behind the 12. If this is your standard backline shape and you have multiple plays you can run from it then when setting up for this move the opp will think nothing of the position of the BW pre move and the fact the FB has moved wide, if anything, will encourage them to think the loop will be genuine and drift across
Both a and b will increase the chances of pulling off this move
Angus
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Supreme Being
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b) You need a standard formation or shape to your attack - with the Brumbies this often involved the BW behind the 10 and the FB behind the 12. If this is your standard backline shape and you have multiple plays you can run from it then when setting up for this move the opp will think nothing of the position of the BW pre move and the fact the FB has moved wide, if anything, will encourage them to think the loop will be genuine and drift across
top points from Angus of course... but maybe the secret is not so much having a handful of set moves starting from a similar alignment, but rather have a pattern of plays from a set alignment, and the TDM choosing the best pattern depending on the defence's response.
e.g. maybe (using this as an example, as a start) in this "pattern" all the players always run the same lines, but the ball is distributed as required to BEST exploit the defenc's weakness. Somebody has to be the (tactical) decsion maker (TDM) - maybe its the BW or the 15 in this pattern.
So the first time the move is run IF the TDM sees that in fact the defence have drifted with the initial pass and are concentraing on the loop then the BW IS the man that takes the pass... if the defense has held attracted by the BW's line the call is to go with the loop and usae the extra man the loop has created.
Etc.
That may be running before we are walking though :-)
didds
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didds (07/11/2008)
but rather have a pattern of plays from a set alignment, and the TDM choosing the best pattern depending on the defence's response.
e.g. maybe (using this as an example, as a start) in this "pattern" all the players always run the same lines, but the ball is distributed as required to BEST exploit the defenc's weakness. Somebody has to be the (tactical) decsion maker (TDM) - maybe its the BW or the 15 in this pattern.
So the first time the move is run IF the TDM sees that in fact the defence have drifted with the initial pass and are concentraing on the loop then the BW IS the man that takes the pass... if the defense has held attracted by the BW's line the call is to go with the loop and usae the extra man the loop has created.
Etc.
That may be running before we are walking though :-)
didds
I am toying with a concept which is possibly an elaboration or expansion of this where instead of calling a move straight up you call a set up in that your players to go set positions
Simple example would be scrum 15 open wing stands on the far touch with 15 behind the 12 and Blind wing behind and between the 9 and 10
Now if you set up like this there are I would say 3 possible positional defensive responses to this and you have a move planned to respond to each
So instead of calling a move when the scrum is set you call a formation then you see how the opposition respond looking for triggers eg position of blind wing, 15 and open wing then you call the move in response - through practice all players should be recognising the same triggers and in effect the defence dictates the move to be run against them working on the principle that you can't defend everywhere at the same time and always have to be weak somewhere
It is a work in progress 
Cheers
Angus
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Supreme Being
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Just picking up on Didds' point about running before walking - I came across the following interesting response from Rick Campbell in an RL coaching forum. It also picks up on the point made above about not telegraphing your moves by having players set up in certain ways. Following the progression through one can see that it is possible to create all sorts of formations and timings from almost any start point - useful also in counter attacks.
We went through some of this on Thursday night. I had the guys "counting elephants" to get the timing for phase 1. From a flat line start if each player counts 2 elephants "one elephant, two elephant go!" from the moment the player inside him moves a good 45 degree line is achieved and players are hitting the ball at pace. One elephant gives a flatter line. Phases 2 and 3 are a work in progress for me. However one can see how phase 2 could be achieved by manipulating the elephant count, some go on 1, others on 3 etc. Build it all up and one can see how the leaguies get these multi layered attacking moves going from quite shallow and indistinct starts. The beauty of it is that the players can manipulate their own timings to suit the situation and the reactions of the defense - a move can potentially be flexed to the situation rather than being a rigid entity that will work better or worse depending ont the reactions of the defense. Something to work on.
"Timing within the scope of the modern game is often lost through a lack of where to stand, when to run, and how to position yourself.
To create understanding amongst your players begin by having them perform a passing movement with four players facing the same direction in a straight line. The first player with the ball will initialise the movement followed by the next player then the next - nothing new here, but the principles have begun: Principle 1) Take your timing from the player next to you - not from the first player with the ball or any other conetation.
Next, after this simple task has been achieved instruct the different (player 2 or player 3) players to "hold" or "delay" their timing. This will simulate "assumed depth" without having anyone run from a deeper position or set back on a 45 degree angle or any of that sort thing. The first player will run forward, the second player will delay his run and call for a "pullback" or "deep" pass then the normal formation will finish the movement. As you can see you have now allowed yourself time to execute away from an imaginary defence - this is game relevant training. Keep manipulating different players' timings and by following principle 1 your players will always be timed correctly to receive the ball. Principle 2) If you need extra time, delay your run - this will assist in breaking up the linear coordination of defence lines.
Step three, have the players operate in two man groupings. Manipulate the timing of runs and the way you use the footy - play to the next player, play behind to the next player out. Then you can begin to set "levels of depth" - first pair are on the "ad line" or "game line", next pair are set one or two metres behind that level of depth and further out, then the next pair a couple of metres back again,etc. The total depth of all the pairs from first pair to the last is no further than 10m. You don't need to be 30m deep from the initial reciever to run onto the ball at full pace. From the levels of depth positioning timing of runs and use of the footy (at or behind) are manipulated to achieve the results you desire - playing at a retiring defence or setting back a bit to achieve time and space.
Step four, use of option runners, these are the players that aren't originally the main points of receiption but must time their runs to assist the intended reciever, time their runs to always be in a position to be an option if the first choice is blocked or impractical, and understand the use of their timing into the defensive line (passive or aggressive) to manipulate defenders. Add the use of angle changes and you can place defenders in game-like scenarios to oversee the understanding of your players of the principles you have installed and how they are used to hold or move defenders to suit the attack."
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