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Supreme Being
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Forum Newbie
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Last Login: 10/11/2008 12:37:13
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| A tad over-complicated without any real extra benefits which a much simpler move done well could achieve the same outcomes in my opinion. I also wouldn't want the blind-side wing to be so obviously positioned at the set-up and would want him running a far more acute in-to-out line to get outside the fixed inside defence and then straighten once through. I tend to be a fan of the KISS method anyway as so many called moves break down due to factors outside of the backs control before they have even received the ball from the scrum-half!
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Junior Member
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Last Login: 05/11/2008 11:48:33
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Emgee, although I understand your KISS thoughts, the beauty of Exeter IS just that - it IS simple. There are no difficult ball-handling skills required (unlike miss-passes, scissors, etc,.). The nice thing is that there are 3 players involved, all with clear roles - the 10 is the decoy, the 12 is the distributor - giving a short pass for simplicity, and the blind winger is the receiver. I'd like to add a support player for the blind wing - full back or the 13, but it looks difficult - it'll have to be the open flanker. Particularly in lower/less skilled levels, the number of open passes reaching the open wing in a season is limited, and moves like this get them involved.
If we could develop back play in the same way the SH teams have done, where there is almost always 1) a passer, 2) a receiver, 3) a decoy runner, and 4) a support player, the backs would feel far more involved, more significant parts of the team.
SteveJ
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 17/11/2008 21:34:53
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From a defensive point of view it would be disappointing if this move worked. Given the time 12 spends on the ball he should get cleaned up by D12 before the final pass is made (nasty kidney shot a distinct possibility). If the defensive line push up hard as they should and put pressure on the move they should snuff it out. Against any half way competent defense the 12 would need to be 10m at the very least back from the dummy half to have space to do this. If the defenders hold their channels and are not phased by off the ball runners they should snuff it out. The Barbarians clip is a defensive horror show, a master class in how not to defend. The defenders just stood there and watched it happen. No urgency to get at the play, there were defenders within arms length of the pivot who just watched him dummy here and there. Defenders completely phased by a bit of off the ball running, caught like rabbits in the headlights. Very, very poor from professional players.
As noted elsewhere, timing will be key on this one, it needs to be very slick, at least as good as the Barbarians if not slicker. Run it about 100 times in training before wheeling it out, your 12's renal specialist will thank you for that!
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 13/11/2008 08:57:09
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... but as long as the telling pass happens on "the tackle line" ie when defenders are committed then it stands a chance of success (as does any attempted move)?
Could be that the "tackle" line for this move is actually deeper than the usually accepted "tackle line" - but we are creating a line breaking move here - once breached the "lost" space from a deeper tackle line quickly gets regained.
Maybe we'd need to see examples of this move "failing" to better disect and discuss.
My concern would be the potential for a kidney smash on the #12 still...
didds
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 17/11/2008 21:34:53
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Perhaps a way to achieve some depth would be to have 10 take the ball stood still and deliver an RL style standing pass to 12 before following it and looping. 12 also takes the ball stood still and does his thing where he stands. At least that way 10 and 12 do not compress their own space, it should get to the pivot quicker and arguably it might be easier for their team mates to time their runs etc off a static 12.
While I think about it - Dan, what is that software you used to animate the drill? It looks really good and is a very good way of explaining. I have been looking for something suitable but have not found anything that looks that good yet.
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Junior Member
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I think the key to any move such as this is
a) what has happened before
b) what is you standard backs formation
because you cannot assess the effectiveness of a move such as this in isolation
a) I would not recommend running this move early in the game but after a similar move in which the ball went in a different direction - for example if you had recently or just run a move where the ball actually went to the first receiver on the loop - this way the opposition see the same basic movements and think hey I know this one the 1st receiver gets it back and they respond accordingly thereby adding to the effectiveness of the move. While not having run Exeter we have had success with running the loop then in the next 5 minutes running the dummy loop with the ball going to the Blind wing on the inside because the defence were already conditioned to follow the 1st receiver on his loop
b) You need a standard formation or shape to your attack - with the Brumbies this often involved the BW behind the 10 and the FB behind the 12. If this is your standard backline shape and you have multiple plays you can run from it then when setting up for this move the opp will think nothing of the position of the BW pre move and the fact the FB has moved wide, if anything, will encourage them to think the loop will be genuine and drift across
Both a and b will increase the chances of pulling off this move
Angus
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 13/11/2008 08:57:09
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b) You need a standard formation or shape to your attack - with the Brumbies this often involved the BW behind the 10 and the FB behind the 12. If this is your standard backline shape and you have multiple plays you can run from it then when setting up for this move the opp will think nothing of the position of the BW pre move and the fact the FB has moved wide, if anything, will encourage them to think the loop will be genuine and drift across
top points from Angus of course... but maybe the secret is not so much having a handful of set moves starting from a similar alignment, but rather have a pattern of plays from a set alignment, and the TDM choosing the best pattern depending on the defence's response.
e.g. maybe (using this as an example, as a start) in this "pattern" all the players always run the same lines, but the ball is distributed as required to BEST exploit the defenc's weakness. Somebody has to be the (tactical) decsion maker (TDM) - maybe its the BW or the 15 in this pattern.
So the first time the move is run IF the TDM sees that in fact the defence have drifted with the initial pass and are concentraing on the loop then the BW IS the man that takes the pass... if the defense has held attracted by the BW's line the call is to go with the loop and usae the extra man the loop has created.
Etc.
That may be running before we are walking though :-)
didds
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