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RE: Building a Better Defense

cjp — Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:51:02 GMT

James, I think you misunderstand Philip somewhat. As I read it, Philip recognises the fluid nature of rugby and the fact that one cannot swap teams when in attack or defense. All he is doing is suggesting A way of playing and structuring a team. Noticing the fact that certain positions do more tackling than others has lead him to propose working on those players so as to be able to create key defenders who are exceptionally well conditioned, explosive, destructive defenders. That is not to say that others will not do defense, that they will is inevitable. It is just that one tries to organise the defense such that the best hitters do the bulk of the hitting. Not too crazy really. I am sure that many coaches, if they have a player who is a bit suspect defensively (but may be a key playmaker) do not organise their defense so that this guy finds himself in the key tackle making position all the time! So why not organise the defense to get your best hitters doing lots of hitting? One will not always be able to be so organised, that is taken as a given, but why not try?

Similarly in attack, it is just about being organised. Just as a league team works things so that they do not find the ball in a prop's hands on the 5th tackle when a down field kick is needed. I know it sounds a bit foreign but the idea of getting the ball to your best runners as often as poss is not that mad or indeed unfamiliar. I know if I had a Lomu or a Habana or a Robinson or a Rokothoko in my team I would like to get the ball to them quite a bit. Often when teams with such potent attackers in get the ball to them a lot the team prospers. Look at France in the 6 nations, if they get the ball to their back 3 a lot - watch out! Now you may say that the defense will know where the ball is going. Well if the moves work to get Habana a one on one with a defender - that's a problem for the defense. I know the way it is put may be unfamiliar but the idea of trying to organise things so that players do as much of what they are best at as possible is sensible and not as unfamiliar as first it might seem. After all teams seem to manage to get organised enough so that their best kicker is on hand to make clearance kicks most of the time.

As regards player sizes, these are ideals and relate to the system Philip describes, NOT to the way the All Blacks play or England play. It is not to say that a player could not be outside the range provided they can do the job within system one is using. If you do not need line out jumping ability in a certain position in a certain system, there is no need for a player in that position to be 6'8". Such height would probably hinder him but would not necessarily disqualify him if he could do the job needed. In league there is no need for really tall players but they still crop up from time to time - Eorl Crabtree is 198cm tall (prop, huddrsfield Giants).

RE: Building a Better Defense

james@lions — Sat, 08 Mar 2008 11:41:10 GMT

I disagree with a lot of what you say.Sure use techniques and principles adapted from other sports but you talk about the defence and attack being split, well thats ok in gridiron because the game stops and you actually swap teams. Rugby is more fluid and players have to do both.

As for the skill set for the players you mentioned, under 6', why? Carl Heyman and Andrew Sheridan shouldn't be playing prop according to you. How many quality centres are over 6' too, nonsense.

RE: Building a Better Defense

philipdc — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 10:19:32 GMT

This idea of splitting according to Defensive capabilities comes from Gridiron Football, where the primary split is Offense Defense and not Forwards Backs. Now obviously its got some complications in Rugby, but it is not an off the cuff concept, it is a key area. I am pleased to say that over the last five years we have seen many teams adopting these techniques.

Of course its important that everyone tackles and we all have a good attitude, but its MORE important that 6.12, 7, 3,1, and 10 tackle in that order.

Once you accept this principle it effects everything down the line, its takes me 300 pages to explain a fully integrated systsystemu can download copy at www.ironrugby.com

Start with this:

The physical skill set for 1,3,6,7,10,12,13 is very similar - under 6 foot over 90 kgs. So we would be training them in a squad. In particular they would be doing more gym that the rest and should do it together. So like your backs run in a Squad passing the ball at pratice and forwards go off and practice lineouts and scrums, the Defensive Squad must have specialist training together. While they are doing that, link men 4,5,8,9 will be practicing passing and offloading skills. 2,11,14,15 are your runners and they will be practicing handoffs and hard aggressive running techniqies.

So already this kind of thinking is already effecting our offense. We are going to use specialist runners to carry the ball. Once a runner gets the ball he does not pass it again. He runs until they stop him. Very few people can actually make the gain line penetration. It is up to us to get the ball to the specialists. IN the offense teh Defensive Sqaud acts as littel more than sandbags, focusing on clean ign adn trying to get in as many cheap shots as possible.

We rest on Offense and up the ante on Defense. This is what makes possession so important. While we have the ball very few of us can cause major headaches for their whoel team. Its an economy of motion. When we are on Defense there is an urgency to reverse teh sitaution from hurting us to us hurting them.

The best example of this kind of play out there is the All Blacks. They may not conciously know it, but effectively they play like this. Small Props, Short Flanks, Big Centres.

RE: Building a Better Defense

cjp — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 11:43:33 GMT

Stepping back from the detail of the debate for a minute. I see tackling as a core individual skill in either code, alongside catching, passing and running lines/agility etc (you might add kicking). All players need to be at least proficient in these 4 areas. These are the foundations upon which all rugby is built. There is no point in trying to play this system, these tactics or that if your players do not have the basic skills to enable them to execute. If you ignore any of these basics, you are in trouble.

Of course one can argue that this player or that player does more of this than that, for me it misses the point - I want all players good at the core skills. They should have been working on tackling from an early age, just as they have done with handling skills and running - it should not be an issue when they get to U16s or U18s and above IF the coaches have been doing their job.

Dan is right about the mental aspect of tackling - some will enjoy the "biff" more than others. However, with good coaching these things can be improved. Philip rightly rails at the old fashioned "it's all about guts...grrrr" attitude to tackling. It is a technique like any other. Coach Tom Bass notes "The art of good tackling has been described as 70% desire, 30% technique. This may be true but if a player, especially a young player, does not learn correct tackling techniques, he may increase his natural fear of contact, thus automatically decreasing his desire. Proper tackling skills must be taught slowly, with the initial emphasis on proper body position and not the force of the hit." He goes on to say "Knowledge of proper tackling technique is one of the greatest assets in helping a player overcome his natural fear of injury. It will give the player the desire and determination to take on ball carriers..." Simple - if a player is confident in his ability to execute a tackle he will approach the tackle with more confidence and commitment. If experience has shown him that with correct technique he does not suffer injury he will be more confident still. Correct technique should not only be effective but should minimise the risks of injury to the tackler. It is up to coaches to make sure they are up to date with best practice in this area. What was done in the past is no guide - and probably wrong. There is a still in yesterday's Sunday Times from a Culcutta Cup game in which Dean Richards is demonstrating some pretty wretched tackling technique. It was an amateur game then, times have changed.

RE: Building a Better Defense

james@lions — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 23:23:44 GMT

The concept of it not being important for a winger to tackle sounds like nonsense! What is he supposed to do when his opposite number is running at him lay out a welcome mat? I thought the back three worked as a defensive team?

Where does this leave your team?I take it your Wingers can't cover Fullback or centre?

RE: Building a Better Defense

Tony Allen — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:43:59 GMT

The key players in attack are the key players in defence.

But, and particularly if you're the only coach, you'd be a fool to focus on just these 7 players.

Apart from anything else, you'd be lucky to have more than a 7s team after a few weeks.

RE: Building a Better Defense

DanC — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:33:34 GMT

Philip makes a couple of key points though and I don't think he is trying to specialise beyond a certain point (I await him telling me not though!)

1. Spend more time on key tacklers, though don't ignore others duties.

2. Systems and systems coaches make a difference. If you are the only coach, then you will have to wear the "defensive" hat at times and make sure the players know this is the "defensive system" time.

However, as Alex Manos knows (I coached him at school, which either makes him extremely young, or me very old), you can create a team spirit around defence from which you can build the other elements.

I beleive it is a "mental" thing, and the key being that not every one player is as mentally hard.

RE: Building a Better Defense

Toby — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:12:27 GMT

Good luck with your L1 Manos. I enjoyed your post.

I always enjoy reading philipdc. He thinks "outside the box" and challenges standard thinking about rugby.

In this case, though, I think there are serious problems allocating 7 key tacklers.

First, a good proportion of tackles are by "like-for-like" tacklers. For instance, 6 and 7 tackle 6, 7 and 8; 1 and 3 tackle 1, 2, 3; 12 and 13 tackle the opposition back line. It doesn't make them good tacklers against "different" players.

Second, in attack I don't know many coaches who would rather have their 14 running at the opposition's 11 to avoid 1 or 3. Or in defence having their 10 push team mates out of the way to tackle the opposition's 2.

Third, the key defence players are generally the key offence players too. The onus should be on reducing these players' duties, not increasing them.

Fourth, I don't want to put further pressure on my key attackers. Do I want my 6 marking their 11 because my 14 can't tackle? What happens at the scrum?

Fifth, I can envisage situations - whether created by the opposition or by chance - where a good proportion of the 7 key tacklers would be bound in to a scrum, buried in rucks or otherwise strewn across the field.

Six, many coaches don't have the luxury of choice. The coach of the 3rd XV may only have 20 or 25 players to pick from. He may have to play the only players available, and then out of position. I don't see how even more specialist units outside the higher echelons of the game will work, therefore.

RE: Building a Better Defense

Alex Manos — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:08:00 GMT

I would agree with the post above, you could argue the majority of tackles made by wingers and full backs are try saving tackles, some of the most important in the game so they have to be technically excellent and reliable in this area where as for example open sides are not (but i understand are still very significant within the context of the match!)

Also the way I see it, defense is very much a team strategy, what ever method you use every player has to know their responsibility within it and the team have to move, adapt, communicate etc as a unit (unless you have the 'rabbit'). So there has to be some team training in defense, perhaps at the end of sessions the key players can do that little bit extra and have further practice at defense?

But you can see the teams that have the best defenses, they work as one with huge amounts of communication. But also are interchangeable, each player is confident. Having a position that is weak in defense is asking for trouble, for example 10s weak in defense are always going to be exposed by big heavy forwards charging at him all day.

Depending on time, age group, I love teams that seem to train their players in every aspect of the game. Watching forwards with soft hands offloading in the tackle with agility and speed is beautiful to watch, and the same with backs. e.g wilko in defense.

Sorry for a rambling post, I am doing my level one next month and love the defensive side of rugby. Lots of thoughts and ideas running around my head!

RE: Building a Better Defense

Wingman — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:58:20 GMT

[quote][b]philipdc (27/02/2008)[/b][hr]
so why spend time teachign wings to tackle?
[/quote]

Don't you think that on the occasion wingers and fullbacks need to tackle, they need to make it count? Tackling or missing is most likely the difference between try or no try.
So why would you overlook hem in the tackling department?
I can imagine them needing different sorts of training though, there's a difference between lining up a (s)low running prop or a speeding winger....

RE: Building a Better Defense

philipdc — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:45:00 GMT

We need to get this point accepted first : That certian players make better tacklers and we get them to make the tackles. Coaching them improves it even further.

This is the same as runners. Certain players make better runners. I would argue that this is a lot more extreme that is apparent on the surface of Rugby.

Now the people who are not the tacklers can be used for a numbers of other jobs:

1) They can be used to drive the runners towards the tacklers. We call this containment and we use Defensive Lanes to do this. We force their runners down lanes. At the end of the lane is a nasty surprise that can turnover the ball.

2) Also you can set up stunts where the non tacklers are dummies setting up traps for the tacklers, or going for intercepts.

3) Because running is such a very rare skill ( like only 2% of players are actually capable of advancing the ball). Wings full backs and Hookers can be picked entirely for their offensive capabilities. We can over look their tackling weaknesses and can cover for them.

Once you isolate this tackling ability, making it a team asset like lineout jumping or drop kicking, then those players assigned to this role will take great pride in it. Linebacker is the most popular position in NFL.

RE: Building a Better Defense

philipdc — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:30:10 GMT

You don;t spend time trying to teach Props to Grubber, so why spend time teachign wings to tackle?

I don't have thh exact stats with me, but when I last looked at it - unscientifically- with the Veruska stats on the Super 14. I think I got it about right, 7 players make 80% of the tackles.

Any Rugby Coach, even those at the hoghest level will tell you that their biggest problems is not enough time to prepare. Any focus on one department, simply shows up in the weakness of another.

So by focusing your tackling techniques on the 80% of the tackles, and putting less effort into the 20% (locks, Wings and Full back) you actually get to build a better defense.

RE: Building a Better Defense

cjp — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:50:48 GMT

Gents,

You are both right! Good defense requires individuals to have excellent tackling technique, the ability to co-operate as part of a defensive system, excellent footwork and movement skills as well as a desire to dominate their opponents in the tackle and in defense. There are therefore mental, physical and technical components. All must be present for good defense.

Building a defense culture is very important. In my experience defense is very much the poor relation of attack in Union. That is not to say there are not lots of coaches trying very hard to build better defenses. The broad culture in the game does not really appreciate it. Spectators do not really relish the big hits as they do in League or in Gridiron Football. The differences between league and union are stark in this regard. See a try scored in union where some tackles are missed. Commentators praise the attacking skill etc. The same scene in a league game, esp in Aus and the defense will be pilloried. I recall seeing one player miss a tackle, the commentator's reaction was "Aww...that was a woeful attempt at a tackle. He's let himself and his team down!". I have heard defenses described as "disgraceful" and " a disgrace to the jersey". I recall Denis Betts leaving the field for Auckland, arm hanging limply by his side, shoulder shattered and requiring complete reconstruction. The commentator said "I guess that explains that woeful attempt at a tackle." Betts having gone into a tackle with shoulder destroyed already. Now if you are a kid growing up watching these games and playing on Sunday, these attitudes, this culture is around you all the time, it is part of your game.

As regards intensity, we are in the foothills in union. You will see bigger hits in high school football than in top flight union as I am sure Philip will concur (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVFpRU-MO3o&feature=related). If you do not like the idea of padding and helmets, study the way the likes of Sonny Bill Williams, Steve Matai, FuiFui MoiMoi or Tamana Tahu go about the business of defense. Defense in the NRL is frankly scary at times. As one Canberra based Union coach put it to me "Those guys really go at it."

Philip, you make an interesting point re who does the tackling. Over the summer I met a former Salford Reds player (Super League). He explained some of what went on in defense. The defensive systems used in different parts of the field would be different. Players would use different tackles and tackling techniques in different areas of the field and in different situations. Centres might use different techniques to props just because of where they found themselves and the situation they were in. The players would be expected to select the appropriate tackle for the situation. As you say, it is likely that 6 and 12 will make a lot of tackles - however they will do so in different parts of the field, in different situations etc. Having identified your key defensive players one can look at the sort of tackles they are likely to have to make, or that it is most desireable that they make, one can begin to work on those. A key component will be quickness, agility and footwork esp for forwards. I am sure that this is something that needs working on from an early age. If the player is slow he will not get there to make the tackle at all or end up jumper grabbing. In the close quarters stuff, imagine the impact of a set of forwards with the speed and agility of top flight DLs and LBs - dominant, driving gang tackles exploding with breathtaking speed and ferocity. We can dream.

I would not agree that some players do not need to bother so much with tackling - when I was young it was felt that the front 5 did not really need to be too hot at passing - get in there and push! That did not turn out to be right.

RE: Building a Better Defense

DanC — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:20:30 GMT

I think there are players that should spend more time on tackling, like those who should spend more time of passing. However the stats show that others still need to make tackles, so they need be part of the process.

It is still for a great many players a mental atttitude as well.

Building a Better Defense

philipdc — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:40:21 GMT

You missed the most important point :

Dan thanks for your newsletter. I love them and they always provide thought for my day. I particularlyl liked you recent Topic on Intense Defense.

"The best defensive teams are those which enjoy defending. They take pride in their tackling and the tackling of their team mates. For these players defence is fun."

Dan I think you make the same error that almost all Rugby coaches make, thsi idea that Defense is a "Mental issue". I really struggle with thsi doen here in South Africa. Here there is no such thing as a Defensive Coach. Not even our Naional Team has one.

Defense is coached. Defense is a specialist activity.

Some positions make more tackles then others. 6 and 12 are the highest tacklers; 7, 13, 10, 1,3, are the next. Followed by 8 and 9. I would have to check the exact details but I would guess that the first 7 players make 80% of the tackles in a game.

So by having these as your core defensive unit, it leaves you the flexibility to pick the other players for more offensive capabiliites. Don;t focus you energy teaching gusy the wil lnever tackle, when you can create a great unit from a few specialists.

Best Dimensions for a defender - Under 6 Ft - Great lower Body Strength - Black - Explosive - quick reactions.