Better Rugby Coaching / Better Rugby Coaching / The Huddle / Rugby ethos and passing on the baton... / Latest Posts

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

exfullback — Mon, 11 Jun 2012 13:53:23 GMT

I started playing in 1969 and we were singing filthy songs by the time we were 12. In fact, I remember buying a paperback of rugby songs and we learnt nearly all of them by the time we were 14. The drinking didn't start until we were 16+ and then it was very moderate.

However, when I played in the Army some of the sing-songs achieved legendary status!! I can remember (hazily) an all services round robin tournament in the Falklands that lasted 4 days and just about did for my liver and vocal chords :D I heard songs then from the submariners that I nearly died laughing from. Happy days.

I think the ruder songs are ideal on the team coach and generate a great deal of laughter and camaraderie. The drinking issue is fairly simple in that it must be within the law for the sake of the boys and the club. If it is legal then there can be no comebacks. Simples.

I agree that some of the ribaldry seems to have gone out of the clubhouses of late, not sure what can be done though as it is a reflection of a very different society from 1970 when I started.

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

Marauder — Wed, 09 May 2012 17:51:04 GMT

Didds - great topic

This issue bedevils us in the US. We, the old school (I’ve been here playing rugby since 1962), have a traditional view of rugby culture that we either brought with us or have adopted from our exile brethren. Drinking and ribald songs were central to that culture and rugby was most definitely a fringe sport. Times are changing.

The college game has grown both in numbers and visibility. When my daughter started playing college rugby in 1990 the club was still the hangout for the serious partier rather than the serious athlete. Most college administrators would rather the rugby club just disappear as they saw far greater liability than reward. There was no margin for error. A beer can left on a college bus could bring immediate suspension to the club, and did so.

This atmosphere is still pervasive at most schools and the only means of maintaining the club on campus is to have strict policy and rigid self policing. My daughter, as club captain, was adamant in demanding designated drivers and separating, as far as the record would show, rugby functions from social functions. Nevertheless, the “rugby house” was a known fixture. I haven’t been around the college rugby scene recently but I suspect that the serious rugby clubs are separating themselves from the social clubs.

Over the past five years I’ve been a principal in the start of two youth rugby clubs fielding teams from U-13 through high school. Except for a few rugby playing parents the traditional rugby social life is totally unknown. We have re-invented our rugby culture to fit it into the US landscape. Our focus is on the camaraderie between clubs and the post match social. Both are unique to the American sports scene and are heartily endorsed by the player’s parents.

The thought of singing songs at the social would be truly alien to both players and parents. Never mind the HS side supping a cold one after a match! Most of our HS players will be driving and owning cars before they graduate and the drinking age is 21. So drinking and singing will have to wait until they go off to college and even there they may find it much curtailed.

Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. I would not want the stress of travelling on tour with a HS side and having a permissive drinking policy. That is too potent for disaster in our litigious society. Am I being a curmudgeon or a realist? Or am I being responsible? I think our parents demand that I be the latter. However, it’s not likely to be an issue any time soon.

So, the culture is changing here but not in it’s deepest roots. Rugby is a special game that embodies special relationships between all who take up our game. That is the part that needs nurturing and maintaining.

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

Jenko — Wed, 09 May 2012 16:55:40 GMT

[quote][b]Was_quite_good (09/05/2012)[/b][hr]Please ignore the spelling mistakes above...................... I meant sing not sign, as for some reason I cannot edit the post to correct.[/quote]

However Swing Low in Sign language has always been a bit of a favourite!:D

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

Was_quite_good — Wed, 09 May 2012 14:38:16 GMT

Please ignore the spelling mistakes above...................... I meant sing not sign, as for some reason I cannot edit the post to correct.

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

Was_quite_good — Wed, 09 May 2012 14:02:08 GMT

Didds,

You pose some interesting questions…………………….

My take on the drinking is very simple: so long as it is within the letter of the law then I really don’t see a problem. The only caveat being that none of the players should be allowed get wasted, having said that if the meal finishes early enough they will all troupe off to the pub anyway ;-)

A sensibly worded end of season newsletter could break it to the parents that the players will be allowed a pint or 2, and that anyone in attendance will effectively have the approval of their parents.

Without doubt, as coaches we have a duty of care to players, parents and the grand old game of rugby to instil the appropriate values in our charges that include: acting responsibly and appropriate manner at all times, regardless of how much someone has had to drink – and if someone has had too much, his or her pals look after them. By the time players get to 16 they should all appreciate that rugby is a team game and that the inappropriate behaviour of one of the players will bring the team and the club into disrepute.

Rugby has many traditions, some good some bad. Many of the things I got up to in the 70s and 80s that were seen as high jinks at the time would be considered out and out vandalism now and criminal damage…..……… most clubs in and around SE London and into Kent had at least one road sign that read “Badgers Mount” or “Pratts Bottom”. Today, such trophies would not be acceptable………. Unless someone on here tells me otherwise?

On the other hand, signing should be positively encouraged as there will be times, especially on tour that a team will be expected to ‘sign for their supper’, so practise makes perfect!

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

didds — Wed, 09 May 2012 12:14:17 GMT

[quote]
I am really sad for the younger generations. My life has been great [so far!]. I have fond memories of climbing trees, swimming in rivers, making dens, playing Robin Hood with bows and arrows we fashioned with pen knives... ... ... ... ...[/quote]

Hey! That was my life! :-)

Anyhow - FTR I would be too "uncomfortable" in doing either I suspect. many thanks for the feedback, because it does in fact echo the voices in the head that would say "don't go there". I am aware I must appear a real miserable wowser at our club sometimes as I "advise" our coaches etc NOT to do A, B, C and X. Maybe I was subconciously trying to find a way to appear less joy-killing and negative.

Whatever - orange squash and banging tables will have to do :-)

didds

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

EKW — Wed, 09 May 2012 12:05:01 GMT

hmm!

OK, this is a minefield, we all know it is, so before I give my opinion I would just have to say DON'T DO EITHER!

It really is down to parents what and how much their children are exposed to 'real life'. Most rugby parents really do agree with Didds but you will always get the one [or two] who would be horrified with either the songs or drinking under age.

You then get yourself into the situation of asking for permission slips and then what do you do with the few who really want to join in but are not allowed to? Some could argue [whether successful or not] that introducing both to their children without their permission is a form of abuse... believe me, I know them!

That said, I remember singing these songs on school trips... even cultural trips and as far as I know [although I may be deluded] I grew up quite balanced and as close to normal as a person in my profession could be!

Drinking is another issue. It is not illegal for children between the ages of 5 and 18 to drink on private premises... meal or no meal. Five does sound far too young but there you go!

My boys were often offered alcohol at weekends or holidays from a young age. I would argue that we educated them into seeing alcohol as a normal social experience! When my eldest was U15s I went to the South of France with his team on tour and quite a few of them shared the odd jug with their meal. I have to tell you, I was absolutely astounded... the boys who I knew well and knew were educated in the same way as mine, drank as part of the meal; enjoying the beer as they went along. However, there were a few who had never had a drink before and could not stop! Unfortunately, I was not aware of this until the middle of the night when my son called me to his room as his room mate had filled the wet room with 'carrot soup'! Thankfully it was a wet room!!!

Even now and through University, even playing Varsity, my boys drink but I never worry that they will ever be incapable. The sad thing is, some young people are never introduced to alcohol until they leave home... Freshers' Week is a disaster and many drop out before the end of the year because they have never been taught how to put alcohol into perspective!!

I am really sad for the younger generations. My life has been great [so far!]. I have fond memories of climbing trees, swimming in rivers, making dens, playing Robin Hood with bows and arrows we fashioned with pen knives... ... ... ... ...

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

didds — Wed, 09 May 2012 10:21:14 GMT

Thanks for the heads up jenko... 16 of course! DOH!

didds

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

Jenko — Wed, 09 May 2012 09:14:00 GMT

Didds

Just to clarify the law states

[quote]
(4)Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply where—
(a)the individual is aged 16 or 17,
(b)the alcohol is beer, wine or cider,
(c)its consumption is at a table meal on relevant premises, and
(d)the individual is accompanied at the meal by an individual aged 18 or over.
[/quote]

I agree with the singing and on tour last week it was great to see the lads get into the 'Tour ethos' with rules, fines, expectations of entertainment etc.

We have a responsibiltiy to educate our charges in an appropriate manner

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

OmarLittleAndAssociates — Wed, 09 May 2012 01:52:31 GMT

lucky bastards! in the US the drinking age is 21, so there is zero tolerance for alcohol at U19 rugby events. we don't teach them songs or anything ribald either (as we have both a girls and boys team).

those traditions etc, begin after high school, either at the club or university level.

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

Tacticalwithdrawal — Tue, 08 May 2012 14:15:01 GMT

didds,

On the drinking front I'd say no for two main reasons:

I think its a parent's perogative to decide when and where U18's drink, stepping on those particular toes will only cause huge grief to you
If you do offer drink there is always at least one muppet who gets hold of more than their share, however closely you regulate it. Being responsible for sloshed U18's is not a good place to be

On the singing front, however, a resounding yes. It's not just a rugby thing either (though rugby is notorious for it). I grew up sailing and we learned all the same songs :P

We take our U12-U10 on tour every year and part of that is them learning ribald songs (heavily toned down, much to their parent's amusement) on the bus as we travel. As they are U12 the songs are heavily censored and the censorship is heavily enforced but the basics of the more inocent ones are learned. Parents, even the more 'puritanical' ones seem to accept and even expect this as part of the rugby environment.

However, the kids are very aware that singing all songs is a core part of tour, they know the coaches sit down into the wee small hours every night singing (with suitable lubrication) and that the vast bulk of the songs are just normal songs. The kids hear us and want to learn all the songs the next day so I'd say they all go home knowing a good 10ish of the core songs everyone sings plus 2-3 ribald ones. As long as you keep that balance and prevent them all being ribald people are completely relaxed about it.

Finaly, I feel its a core part of growing up, not just giving them the knowledge and skills to fit into such groups as they get older, but also learning the crucial lesson that behaviour acceptable in one environment is not acceptable in another. We find that 'tour-itus' is a common ailment in all the kids coming home after the tour but that it lasts longest for the U10's and shortest for the U12's. ie. the U12's are learning the lesson and adapting behaviour to their environment.

'What goes on tour stays on tour!'

RE: Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

GE — Tue, 08 May 2012 03:25:19 GMT

Hi didds,

Very interesting questions, and very relevant to a rugby coaching forum. We are not only teaching young people to play the game. Rugby is about life. How we approach the game, and our actions amongst our peers after the game, are equally important.

There are two parts to your question:

1. Drinking

Firstly let me say I am definitely NOT a tea-totaller. But here I am afraid I might be considered a dinosaur - I do not believe that children (under the age of 18) should ever drink alchohol. Even small amounts can be harmful to health, and in particular brain development. I also think it is important for aduclts to behave themselves in front of children. Show them how to behave responsibly, remember we are their role model. Of course, I know that children drink, and we cannot stop them if they choose to. But that does not mean it should be condoned.

That is not to say that junior rugby functions should be devoid of alcohol, that would be silly. But drinking should not be part of the culture, that is not something that is good for our sport. And excessive drinking should never be condoned in front of young people.

2. Ribald songs

Here I am completely with you, didds. Hymns are for church. Rugby is about roughing it with your mates. Dirty songs (within reason **) are about humour and good times, and never hurt anyone. (** I would draw the line on anything that might be racially abusive or demeaning to women or minority groups) But outside of that I would think almost anything should go. Sticks and stones, as they say.... Ribaldry is just harmless fun, and most 12 year olds (especially these days) would handle it easily.

Rugby ethos and passing on the baton...

didds — Mon, 07 May 2012 15:21:34 GMT

We had a great day yesterday with 2 end of season junior section dinners and awards, with a fun day in between. It reminded us all that this is what we have that is so special - social events as well as the action.

I had several conversations during the evening when the junior dinner was on (U13s-U16s) - where do we fit in the bigger picture? Should we fit in the bigger picture?!!

I talk about ribald singing, and beer before bedtime. Of course the laws of the land MUST be followed - but the laws of England permit beer,cider or perry with a meal for those aged 14 and over, in the presence of an adult. The interpretation of what constitutes a meal is maybe open to debate, but a sit down hot meal must "count" we agreed. So... we could - legally - have put jugs of beer on the table for (say) the U15s and U16s. Even many of the U14s may well be 14 years by now.

And what about a sing song? Maybe not the crudest and rudest... but not hymns either. Is that wrong? Should be be singing "Imobile" with those under 18, chortling away about girls that don't wear underwear on Sundays, middle classes with painful derriere's, and naughty clergymen? OR about farmer's daughter's and threshing machines? Or about three sets of triplets in a pram with an angry father, shotgun on his knee?

Does that make us sexist/racist/homophobic? Should we use publically sexual swearwords in songs and seen as condoning it - in the full knowledge that these lads swear in the own peer groups anyway, and drink alcohol far in excess than we may have provided (and by the evidence of my son's party last summer apparently of a MUCH stronger variety than beer).

Are we overly caught up in a PC world, where the Daily Mail exposes everyone where possible as a child abuser for breathing in the wrong direction on a Sunday? Should we - could we justifiably - snub PC nicetites in the knowledge that what is occurring is no way near as bad as what occurs outside of a rugby club environs, in the interests if keeping some real honest transitions going?

I'm not talking about exposing 9 year olds to "4 and 20 virgins" or 12 year olds to "drinking a yard of ale". Just suggesting to the latter years that sometimes a few hearty and naughty songs and a pint is what is something special that our game is losing.

I cannot remember the last time anyone sang after a seniors game. Even back in the mid 80s we did it often.

Before yesterday I would have said a resounding "NO". BUT... I am not longer sure. I would never want to expose anyone to anything they may be uncomfortable with of course (and i accept given peer pressure with lads how would we know?) and I am really not suggesting we send 20 lads home absolutetly realing.... but we could have a lot of fun. Naughty Fun. Historically rugby type fun.

Or am I just a dinosaur?

didds