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RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Mon, 02 Apr 2012 03:21:21 GMT

This thread should be a warning to all coaches. If a parent rings and and makes a complaint about bullying, DO NOT tell that parent that it is not your problem. Otherwise you might find that your committee takes a dim view of such, and you will find yourself without a role within the club.

Do listen to the parent's and player's issues, do try to understand the issue form the victim's perspective, and do refer the issue immediately to your committee, stating facts only and avoiding any prejudice.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

didds — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 14:43:59 GMT

delighted to hear the latest news GE, and especially delighted that my fears based on what you wrote are - on the whole - unfounded.

all the best,

didds

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:34:39 GMT

(continued...)

We had the first home grading games for the club today, playing U10 through U16 (9 teams). It was a wonderful day of junior rugby. I was asked to be involved all day from 9am through 3pm, grading teams in the U10s and U11s and refereeing two games (U11B and U14). What was obvious was that the club was actively and publicly endorsing me as a valued coach, referee and all-round club volunteer. I personally had a great day, and thoroughly enjoyed myself.

Then it came time for the U13s, and my boy's turn to play. After being very active as a coach in the U12s, I faded into the background and watched. I discovered immediately that I was wasn't so unpopular, at least half the U13 parents deliberately sought me out and had a conversation with me - not about the bullying, rather the subject was typically involving the "change of guard" in the coaching. Apparently, during the week, the U13 coach was demoted to trainer, replaced as coach by one of the former U16 coaches (former club president and committee member). I was told that other parents had complained about the former coach's negativity (which I mention earlier in this thread), and his actions (inactions) wrt the bullying incident may have contributed to his demise. The committee had acted decisively afterall.

I spoke to the new coach (ex U16s), and he was very positive and said he intended to look after my boy, watch for any bullying, and give him a good run in his favourite position. And he did. My boys had a cracker game, and came off the field all grins.

[quote][b]didds (24/03/2012)[/b][hr]so... other parents are aware that there is bullying occurring, recognise who is bullying whom, but see YOU as the intrinsic problem and not the bully and bullying? [/quote]

Yes, but not all of the parents. Apparently it is just a small group centred around the bully's father. And they are now no longer involved in coaching or management.

[quote]and the club committee also understand this? But are not challenging these "other parents" about their beliefs? [/quote]

Apparently the committee are all over this like a rash. They are deliberately shifting the power base in the team away from the bullies. This is being done with a clear understanding of the majority views of the parents.

[quote] Clearly the bullying is endemic. [/quote]

Was endemic.

[quote] I'm delighted your son loves rugby.

But I honestly think its time for him to love it somewhere else. You are clearly not going to get anything approaching normality or safety for him in that environment - all the time his fellow players psrents side with the bully you are both on very unfirm ground. [/quote]

Yes didds, I was coming to the same conclusion. I was getting prepared to the throw a few grenades and leave with my son. But after today I discovered that the committee has decided that my son is valued, and I should stay.

I don't kid myself. This is not yet over. There will be more ... don't you just love club politics! :)

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

didds — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 14:02:34 GMT

so... other parents are aware that there is bullying occurring, recognise who is bullying whom, but see YOU as the intrinsic problem and not the bully and bullying?

and the club committee also understand this? But are not challenging these "other parents" about their beliefs?

Clearly the bullying is endemic.

I'm delighted your son loves rugby.

But I honestly think its time for him to love it somewhere else. You are clearly not going to get anything approaching normality or safety for him in that environment - all the time his fellow players psrents side with the bully you are both on very unfirm ground.

didds

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:26:09 GMT

(continued...)

The committee has acknowleged that the club does not have a bullying policy, and regardless of any specific bullying occurring, they decided to go to each of the teams in every age group and give them a lecture, reinforcing that bullying has no place in rugby. This was great news to me as a coach and parent, and I think it is a big step in the right direction.

The lecture was delivered to the U13s team a few days ago. I was encouraged not to attend as the bullly and his father were expected to be there. Although the identity of the bully wasn't officially reported, rumours spread like wildfire. I am told that those present at the lecture, boys and parents, were all aware who the bully and victim are. I am told that most of the parents are angry with me for stirring up a hornets nest. I am now Mr Unpopular with the inner circle of the team. I have been advised (by friends) to stay away from games and training for my own benefit, and my son's. I don't care. I have done what I set out to do - I have not allowed my son to be bullied out of the club. My son is playing for the team he wants to play in. He plays his first game for the season tomorrow, a grading trial. He is really excited. I will be watching from the back of the stands.

I am still concerned for my boy's safety. The bully is still there.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

didds — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 23:56:36 GMT

[quote]
Yes didds, but I am not pursuing action against the messenger because it will achieve nothing for my son.
[/quote]

I accept that and this is not about making you look bad or me clever - its your call and I respect that totally. However, whilst I suspect/hope this was pretty much a one off, as a general rule for one person to ignore it it _may_ lead to the situation persisting with messages to other people - because they never had it explained that this was unacceptable behaviour. (Not necessarily in this particular case - I am speaking generally).

[quote]
The coach also argued that I should focus the accusation against the messenger. Why? Is this an attempt to defer responsibility and distract attention away from the real bully? Shouldn't the coach be taking action to ease my sons concerns, and get him to training?
[/quote]

yes. 100% agree.

[quote]
I have a growing suspicion that the real issue emerging here is that this coach doesn't want my boy in the team. Otherwise he would be dropping everything to help me.[/quote]

I must say that was my first thought when I read your recent follow up.

I empathise and sympathise - and I hope everything resolves itself for you and most importantly your son.

very best regards

didds

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 21:32:58 GMT

[quote][b]didds (16/03/2012)[/b][hr]

But that lad's actions were still bullying. If he really didn't understand that passing on the message was still malicious, then he needs to as a life lesson.

[/quote]

Yes didds, but I am not pursuing action against the messenger because it will achieve nothing for my son. It is a distraction from the real issue, which is that my boy doesn't want to go to rugby training, because a bully in the team has threatened him. That's what needs to be resolved.

The coach also argued that I should focus the accusation against the messenger. Why? Is this an attempt to defer responsibility and distract attention away from the real bully? Shouldn't the coach be taking action to ease my sons concerns, and get him to training?

I have a growing suspicion that the real issue emerging here is that this coach doesn't want my boy in the team. Otherwise he would be dropping everything to help me.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Tacticalwithdrawal — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:48:06 GMT

[quote][b]GE (16/03/2012)[/b][hr]I spoke to the club president and she advised that (a cooincidence) the issue of bullying has also arisen in another team at the club. It is early in the season, and the committee have been flat out with registrations, but she assures me they are now turning their minds to applying club policy on bullying. My sons case will be the first seen to. [/quote]

good to hear, it's really shitty to be bullied (had it happen to me at one point) and it's definately the club's problem as if the club gets a reputation for allowing it their new registrations will dry up overnight.

[quote]She advised that the coach of the team has sent an email to the committee this afternoon insisting that there is no case for Johnny to answer, the bullying was at the school, but I doubt that will fly with the committee. I think it is disappointing that the coach is trying to sweep the issue under the carpet.[/quote]

some people just want to coach rugby not get involved in other stuff, it's a stupid attitude but an understandable one. Sounds like (hopefully) your committee will point out to him where his duty lies.

[quote]TacticalWithdrawal, by name and nature :) ?.[/quote]

only when larger opposition players were bearing down on me ;) "run away, run away" - mind you I've been 6" and 16 stone since about aged 16, so not many larger oppositions out there :P

[quote]I think this is simply a matter of him not wanting to pack down at flanker, and bind onto big dim-witted lock who issues bullying messages on behalf of his dim-witted dad. Simple as that.[/quote]

just explain to him what flankers can do to their locks if the lock is being a muppet :cool:

On the plus side, if he learns to deal with neanderthals at his age it'll stand him in really good stead through his life.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:23:43 GMT

I spoke to the club president and she advised that (a cooincidence) the issue of bullying has also arisen in another team at the club. It is early in the season, and the committee have been flat out with registrations, but she assures me they are now turning their minds to applying club policy on bullying. My sons case will be the first seen to. She advised that the coach of the team has sent an email to the committee this afternoon insisting that there is no case for Johnny to answer, the bullying was at the school, but I doubt that will fly with the committee. I think it is disappointing that the coach is trying to sweep the issue under the carpet.

TacticalWithdrawal, by name and nature :) ? I have given consideration to swapping to another club, but doubt that my boy would agree to it. He wants to play rugby with his cousin. And he is definitely not using this as an excuse to give up rugby - he is quite passionate about the game, he is too young to be chasing girls, and knows it will soon be winter and too cold to surf, so I know he is keen to play. Besides, he is not the devious type, too honest and forthright for his own good (chip off the old block). I think this is simply a matter of him not wanting to pack down at flanker, and bind onto big dim-witted lock who issues bullying messages on behalf of his dim-witted dad. Simple as that.

This can be solved with an apology from Johnny to my son. They can then enjoy their rugby. I am confident the committee will see to it that this happens.

The neanderthal dad will be a problem forever, but I don't care about him. He can be ignored. If he oversteps the mark, I will speak to the authorities.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Tacticalwithdrawal — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:50:01 GMT

GE, couple of thoughts having watched my sister go through something very similar.

As we found out in my sister's case the fact he's a policeman makes it easier. Yes he can make your life quite difficult for the short-term but police forces are very hot on stamping on policemen that do this sort of thing. If it happens you just have to document everything, including times and dates and then get hold of the appropriate authorities. It gets dealt with very quickly and efficiently.
You've obviously inadvertantly crossed paths with one of those neanderthals who not only carry grudges but also need to have a hate figure to function. Your missus is right, don't respond as that's what he needs (or if you do respond you need to go nuclear so he understands never to mess with you again - not recommended but possible). There isn't a lot you can do about it but if you don't respond he may get bored and switch to someone else. Your problem is you've publicaly humiliated him (in his eyes) so its obviously going to take a while for someone 'more deserving' of his hate to come along.
Not sure you're getting enough support from your club, one route out (for a quiet life) is to swap to another club. May feel like giving in but would also possibly end up with you and your family much happoer - life is too short sometimes

Don't envy you but (without teaching you to suck eggs) don't let it take over your life.

by the by, your original rule was 100% right, watching my nephew play rugby in England is a real chore as his whole team seem to think that rugby=mauls, really boring. Please keep with the faith and persuade your kids that running ruby is the way to go! As a Scotsman I would love to support England and its only this year I've felt able to as Lancaster seems to have released your fantastic backs:w00t:

[quote]Last night (Thursday) my #1 son absconded from his U13 training (I am not coaching his team), he went surfing and didn’t come home when he knew that training was on. When I asked him for his reasons, I discover that he is afraid of going to training because of the bully. He also suggested that he may not want to play rugby if he has to play in that U13 team.[/quote]

One last thought, and please don't take this the wrong way, are you sure its the bullying that is the reason or is that just your son's excuse? Has he picked up on the tension around this and decided (probably subconciously) that he wants a break from rugby (surfing and girls more attractive) and this is the way to do it?

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

didds — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:40:37 GMT

[quote][b]GE (30/01/2012)[/b][hr]Yes, didds, it is bullying. But the kid in the playground was just a messenger. The real bully cowers at a distance.[/quote]

Sorry GE - I missed this when you originally posted it somehow. Yes the lad was just a messenger - and I concur with your synopsis about the real bully etc.

But that lad's actions were still bullying. If he really didn't understand that passing on the message was still malicious, then he needs to as a life lesson.

"I was only following orders" is not an excuse.

That aside, its commendable to both parties that they are now mates - kudos to them.

didds

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 04:44:54 GMT

The saga continues ...

Background: Some time ago, my son arrives home from school and advised that a boy has approached him in the playground and said: “Do you know Johnny? He says he hates your guts, and you better not be thinking of playing in his rugby team”. Note that the boy at school is now a friend of my son’s, he is not bullying, merely delivering a message.

The teams are currently finishing pre-season training, grading is next week, and the season starts in a few weeks.

Last night (Thursday) my #1 son absconded from his U13 training (I am not coaching his team), he went surfing and didn’t come home when he knew that training was on. When I asked him for his reasons, I discover that he is afraid of going to training because of the bully. He also suggested that he may not want to play rugby if he has to play in that U13 team.

Today I rang the coach of the U13s rugby team to advise of the problem, and explained the above. The coach’s response was:

• that he should take no action because the bullying is not proven and is only hear-say.
• that Johnny is not the bully, the third–party (the boy at school) is the bully.
• that it is not a matter for the rugby club, it is a matter for the school to resolve.

I managed (I think ) to convince the coach that he was mistaken, and said that if my son decided that he did not want to play rugby, it would mean withdrawing his registration with the club. The coach immediately suggested that this was the best course of action (which immediately has my suspicion's rising about the coaches friendship and allegiance with Johnnys father). I then informed the coach that I wanted my son to play rugby this year for the club (where he has played, and I have coached, since he was in the U6s), and that I did not think that it was right that my son should be bullied out of the club, and that if I was forced to withdraw my son's registration, then it would become a committee matter. I was, after all, ringing the coach of my son's team first, to see if there was a way to resolve the issue before it went that far.

The coach advised that he would call Johnny’s father and advise him of the accusation. (I believe this was issued to me as a threat to me, rather than as a path to resolution). I made it clear that I have no “bone to pick” with anyone, I only want my son to play rugby for the club this year, that is my only agenda. I suggested that the coach think very carefully about how he might resolve this matter, before acting.

The coach agreed he would give it some thought, and hung up the phone without saying good-bye. I am sure now that he immediately got on the phone to his co-coach and/or Johnny's father whinging about me.

(to be continued ...)

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 23:22:24 GMT

Update.

My son has made friends with the boy who delivered the first message. There is no animosity in the lad, he was simply a messenger.

My 12 year old nephew, who plays in the same team, was made aware of this issue. His reaction was [paraphrased]: "What right has the "nong" get to bully my cousin, and make suggestions about who should be in the team? He isn't exactly Mr Popular, and he isn't a very good player either. If he says anything, I'll sort him out, nobody in the team is going to mess with me and my cousin." Now this boy is an enormous red-head, the biggest kid in the team, and has had his fair share of bullying at school and so has no time for it. He is a bright lad too, not prone to violence, so I'm very sure this would end with a word, not not escalate to a physical fight.

Only a few people are aware of this issue within the club. Family, the club president, and the age manager for the group. All agree the issue is with the father. I suspect that if this continues in any substantial way, then this will probably end with him again being banned from attending training and games for the season.

My boy has now completely regained his self confidence, and has committed to playing rugby again.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 05:44:54 GMT

Yes this is so sad, because my son is entirely innocent; he is being victimised, not because of his actions, but because of mine. And further, my son is not really the intended victim, and the other boys are not the bullies.

The actual bully is the dim-witted father, and I am his intended victim.

I suspect that if the boys were left alone, they would all be good friends. I seriously doubt there will be a repeat of the incident at school. Stirring the pot with the school will only antagonise, I am certain it will not resolve anything. As I have said, they are just messengers, this is a matter between myself and the other dad.

I have spoken to my wife (a primary school teacher, with a Masters in special education), and she thinks that I need to be careful about responding to him, and not to react directly - it is what the bully is looking for, and will be prepared for. Further she does not want me to push the issue because:

he is a policeman, and may cause issues for my family outside of the rugby club.
he may continue his campaign of deferred bullying through my son, because it is successful in getting to me
he is an idiot (really, I think he probably has an IQ below 70). Arguing with him will be fruitless - he could drag me down to his level and beat me with experience.

I have determined to do nothing except pointedly ignore the bullying dad, but will monitor the situation with my son to ensure he is OK. If the deferred bullying continues in any way, I will be certain to seek a resolution through the school, including contacting the school where the bully's son attends.

Finally, didds and OWG, thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate it. I wonder if this is something that anyone else has experienced, it seems very odd to me, and nothing that I would ever have suspected might happen to me when I took on the coaching role.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Was_quite_good — Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:51:40 GMT

An incredibly sad situation.

The only thing I would add, and this is without knowing how the messenger delivered the message and whether there is any more to come, the messenger is an accessory and as such should be made aware of this and told to stop. Otherwise there is a possibility that every time your son sees this other lad he could be nervous/anxious about what he is going to say and thereafter could affect his school work.

Good luck.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 11:40:13 GMT

Yes, didds, it is bullying. But the kid in the playground was just a messenger. The real bully cowers at a distance.

I am not going to speak to the school, because it will reflect badly on our club, and on rugby. The issue is a club matter, and I will deal with it within the club. I intend to confront the father, and let him know what his son has done, and that the club committee is aware of it. Nothing more. If he has a shred of decency within him, he will be consumed by shame.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

didds — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:39:18 GMT

tell the school as well.

Its bullying.

didds

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:15:23 GMT

[quote][b]GE (12/08/2010)[/b][hr]

Here is the (hopefully final) outcome of this incident.

The Dad has been severely spoken to by the club, and now drops Johnny at training, and then leaves or watches from his car.
He hates my guts, but I don't care. I have full support form the club and co-coach to implement and enforce this rule.

[/quote]

It is now nearly 1.5 years since I posted this "hopefully final" comment.

Today my son arrived home from his first day in secondary school. He informed me, with a tear in his eye, that if he has to go back to playing in this team, that he will have to quit rugby. "Why?" I said (shocked). "Because", he said, "today a new boy at my school, who used to go to school with Johnny, came up to me in the playground and said to me that Johnny hates my guts, and I better not be thinking I can come back and play in that team."

Well, I was totally floored. It would seem that the dim-witted Dad and his dim-witted boy continue to hold a grudge against me, and are actively bullying my son.

I have phoned the club president, told the story, but asked that no action be taken as yet.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:38:27 GMT

[quote][b]GE (06/08/2010)[/b][hr]My feeling is that the Dad’s ego will be fatally wounded, and he will leave the club in a desperate move to protect his pride. It is a disaster for the boy. I hope the bloke’s wife (who is lovely, and not quite as dim-witted) gives him the treatment he deserves for his appallingly selfish and arrogant behaviour.
[/quote]

It would appear that this was accurate, but the bit about him leaving the club was probably just wishful thinking on my part. He has stayed on with the intent of making my boys life miserable. What a jerk.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 07:59:42 GMT

[quote][b]GE (12/08/2010)[/b][hr]Once again thanks to all for advice and comments.

Here is the (hopefully final) outcome of this incident.

[/quote]

It is now nearly 1.5 years since I posted this "hopefully final" comment.

Well, I was totally floored. It would seem that the dim-witted Dad and his dim-witted boy continue to hold a grudge against me, and are actively bullying my son.

I have phoned the club president, told the story, but asked that no action be taken as yet.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Ferret — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:31:37 GMT

Good to hear of your outcome and that the team is doing so well. We too have undergone adverse events, which seemed like the end of the world at the time, only to find the team came back stronger and better bonded than ever. Enjoy the rest of the competition and good luck!

Cheers Ferret

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

EKW — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:51:48 GMT

[quote][b]GE (15/08/2010)[/b][hr]The boys played their quarter-final on the weekend, and won 37-0...[/quote]

That is really good news... and it sounds like the boys had fun doing it :).

Discipline is sooo good to watch. I am really pleased it all came together. This is a good age to start things working too. As for the inside half, it is down to the player, not the age, some find it intuitive and yours sounds like he is doing well. Of course, the fact that he can see how he puts it all together and how it works helps; he is becoming more pivotal that the outside half :D.

Good luck with the rest of the tournament.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 07:55:51 GMT

This is U11s.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

OmarLittleAndAssociates — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:44:57 GMT

very interesting that it worked so effectively. by "junior" what age range is your team? 14-16?

I'm just not sure how well this would work on a team with an inexperienced scrumhalf. One of the girls squads that I was the forwards coach for had an amazing scrumhalf last season, probably one of the best under 19 girls in northern california, and we were able to effectively do what you do by getting it out to the backs nearly every time.

cheers on it working though.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:41:42 GMT

The boys played their quarter-final on the weekend, and won 37-0. What was obvious about the game, as several independent observers told me, was that the forwards looked completely dominant. It was not because they were bigger, or ran more metres, or defended harder. They dominated because at the breakdown they were quick to clean out and form a stable ruck platform with quick phase ball to the backs. The backs then ran far more freely than their opponents who with each phase struggled to maintain a defensive line.

It was clear that the forwards were not hesitant about what to do at the breakdown. As soon as the ruck was initiated, 4 or 5 players immediately joined and bound on and two players positioned as pillars. There were no forwards standing back behind the tackle area looking for the ball in the hope of picking it up and having a run, which is so common in junior rugby and so hard for a coach to resolve.

I can say, I am now happy with the success of the blanket rule "don't pick and drive from the ruck, get the ball to the half-back", that it works really well in a junior team in establishing (and thereby teaching the benefits of) basic phase play.

Next year I intend to maintain the rule, but begin to relax it by pointing out that a [b]planned[/b] pick and drive from the ruck can provide benefits in certain circumstances, eg when very close to the tryline or taking advantage of a skinny blindside. I will be teaching it as a deliberate move. But the rule will stay, it just works so well.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

didds — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:06:32 GMT

excellent news!

didds

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

EKW — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:20:02 GMT

Great news GE! I wish you and your team all the best... let us know how they get on in the finals.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:17:18 GMT

Once again thanks to all for advice and comments.

Here is the (hopefully final) outcome of this incident.

Now here's the really good news ...

After the incident with the dad, the boys have taken a keener interest. The team captain came back to me with feedback from the boys. Most understand why we have the rule, (ie, it ensures that a ruck forms, and the ball gets to the backs) but a few of the boys didn't understand why it was so important. So the captain asked me to explain it to everyone. Which I have now done. Now the boys (including Johnny) are happier, playing better and more consistently, and are actively encouraging each other to join the ruck correctly and deliver clean ball. Marvelous to watch!

The boys played their final round game last weekend, won 27-5, they are now in the finals, and are favourites to win the comp. Happy Days!

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Fri, 06 Aug 2010 03:12:40 GMT

More …

One thing I forgot to mention is that as I left the training session, I encountered the team captain. I said to him, “Johnny doesn’t know whether to do what his dad says, or what the coach says. This is bad for the team. I want you as captain to provide Johnny with guidance on the right thing to do. I trust you to do this for the teams sake. Thanks mate.” This is a slightly risky move, but I have had some success in engaging peers to resolve issues in the past, and it has worked.

Since my post last night I have spoken to the club president. He has promised to speak to the Dad, and advise him that his behaviour is unacceptable to the club, and will be reminding him that we are here for the boys. Coaching is to be left to the coaches without interference, and the coaches volunteer status is to be respected. The Dad will be told that if he cannot remain silent, he will be asked not to attend training and games.

I have also spoken to the backs coach (co-coach). We basically agreed to take the “4th approach” described by didds. We will basically write off this season with that player, and carry on allowing him to play as he wishes without reprisal. (hopefully he will be guided by his captain to play by the team rules). We will maintain the rule, but ease up a bit on its application to reduce opportunity for conflict. We agree that this strategy will not seriously harm the teams prospects in the finals. Next season I will restart the training program with a new focus on teaching how to pick/drive from the ruck base properly, which was always my plan anyway.

My feeling is that the Dad’s ego will be fatally wounded, and he will leave the club in a desperate move to protect his pride. It is a disaster for the boy. I hope the bloke’s wife (who is lovely, and not quite as dim-witted) gives him the treatment he deserves for his appallingly selfish and arrogant behaviour.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

matty p — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 19:59:16 GMT

Great questions. On the decision making point, I like to agree with the great philosophy from Pirates of the Carribean about "rules" - "they're more like...guidelines". Rules were made to be broken. Teach your kids good ideas, and explain why they are good ideas. But then they have to make their own decisions. If it doesn't turn out so well, then you have something to talk with them about at training.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

OmarLittleAndAssociates — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 15:11:09 GMT

haha, one of the few nice things about coaching in the US is that barely any of the parents know the rules!
:P

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

JBUS_rugby — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:47:15 GMT

It's pretty obvious you want to encourage a game with width, moving the ball away from contact ASAP, whereas the father is more of the "Munster school" of pick-and-go rugby. This is a real Gordian Knot of a problem.

I think we need to think about allowing the boy to have some ball, while showing him how to do it well.

Talk to the boys as a squad. Talk about several aspects of the session (either what you just did, or what you did yesterday). [i]Don't do this if parents are there.[/i]

Look at [i]positive[/i] aspects first and explore aspects that need to be worked on [i]second[/i] . Talk about the desired outcome ("What do we want to do?", "Did we do what we want to do?" "How do we get to do what we want?")

So, if we look at what happened in the session, you can pick out the positive aspects of what he did ("you kept the defence on their toes. You forced them to deal with you" "you sucked defenders in") before looking at the outcome was ("Shame you lost the ball.." ). Get the lads-including him- to reflect on this and come up with solutions ("Stand out wide for a pass and take it a pace" "Don't pick unless you have support" "Fight to get the ball back from the maul"). If the boys come up with the solutions, the you are not seen to criticise-you are [i]managing[/i] rather than [i]controlling[/i] the situation

Staying solution focussed stops you getting bogged down in the argument and lets you move forward. While you have possibly been seen to take a step back as a coach, you might be allowing everyone to take a step forward.

Just what I think...
:ermm:

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Tryer — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:04:00 GMT

A 5th......... ask the parent/player to only come to games. Ask them not to come training as this is when you coach the "team" and as his dad doesn't want him to be part of the team. He has already publically told everyone his son is not gaining anything from training.

A 6th....... don't let the player participate in your training games and ask him to stand with you to show him what his team mates are doing. Afterall he is stopping the others from practising.

Very, very difficult for you and I hope it works out for you.....

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

didds — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:53:13 GMT

sympathies.

Its a real tough call,because at the heart of it is the wrong person that ultimately WILL be the one that suffers the player.

Your options seem to be (and please jump in if anyone has any more)

1) you quit
2) the player gets dropped
3) you ignore what is happening and just try to get the other lads doing what is correct (and make no mistake I think you are correct.)

Neither 1 or 2 is realisitic really. 1) makes EVERYBODY suffer 2) makes the player suffer. 3) makes every OTHER player suffer (though maybe an off the record chat with the other players may help. maybe.)

A 4th option which may be too much hassle...

4) You basically write off this season with that player. You just try and get everybody ELSE to do it your way and leave him to his dad. Then next season (so its obviously not a knee jerk reaction if you get my drift!) you start awarding player of the match/training based on a points system. You publish a list of "game plan" rules which include no pick and go etc. In a match/training points are awarded for players that fulfill these "rules". So if said player never follows the rule,then he cannot ever win it. IF that is actually a good thing of course. Maybe in training games, the winning team is not actually the one that necessarily scored the most tries, but the one that fulfills most "rules" and thus scored most "points". You could use negative points for BREAKING the rules (though that's a negative connection being made which is allegedly not a good idea). In short, you create a situation whereby the only way the player can gain squad approbation/positive play within the squad is to follow the rules. Scoring one solo try but turning the ball over twice and being caught in possession would not be a "positive"compared to another player that always cleared out and supported backlines well.

I do agree that your section chair and coaching coordinator/etc should now be involved. Your position within the squad has been badly undermined. I do not feel it unfair that the father may end up being requested not to attend, although ultimately this may impinge on the player whose fault it is. But there has to come a time when we all can no longer be blackmailed over the player being the worse off through no fault of his own.

didds

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

EKW — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:44:26 GMT

U G L Y !

Totally agree with Ferret... I really feel for you.

I think the Dad has just shown that there is no amicable way out of this. I have never seen this in rugby before but have seen it in football. The Dad was banned... as expected, the boy did not return either but there was a change in the dynamics... for the good. Apparently, the Dad's behaviour was having quite a negative impact on the other children, which was filtering back to the parents and nobody was happy. Once the Dad/boy left, a huge pressure was lifted and the team rallied round and started to play awesome football. As the team started winning and became a much better place to be at, more boys joined.

Unfortunately, the boy lost out and he was a really good kid. He joined another club but by then, the Dad had a reputation so was held at bay from the start.

You cannot let this parent hold you to ransom... everybody will suffer :(.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Tryer — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 13:37:32 GMT

Ferret is right..... you now need the support of senior officers within your club but you must have an idea of what outcome you want. Reading what you've said you are obvioulsy committed to this group of children. How do the other parents feel about this situation? This parent is undermining the development of their children and the team they play for. It's easy for me to say as I've been lucky in that I'm spoilt by the numbers of players I have available, but if the dad is not prepared to change then his son will suffer ultimately if he is asked to leave but it appears he may feel he has a strong hand because you need his son to makeup the team.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about what happened, we're human and also passionate volunteers and as you say you go out in all weathers week after week. FWIW from what you've said you pulled yourself back in admirably and demonstrated control when he did not.

Good luck and keep us updated with how it goes.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Ferret — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 12:16:03 GMT

Oh dear

I haven't chipped in here before but I am familiar with "dad knows best" syndrome.

And I won't comment on whether the policy is right or wrong, because to me the issue here is who is in charge.

Speaking to the club chairman is the right first step but I hope for your sake he or she is prepared to do what is necessary and won't fudge the issue.

The obvious outcome is that the boy will have to leave if he won't play the way the team is meant to. The problem is that (as you say) you don't have any reserves.

Hard as it sounds you can always find more players. Ask the boys if they have friends who want to play. Your authority as coach could be undermined if you let this go.

If the matter isn't resolved to your satisfaction then you have to consider whether you want to continue. Again this is difficult because I am sure you dont want to abandon the team, and maybe your own son plays for it.

So this brings you back to the beginning. For your sake, and the sake of the rest of the team, you need to prevail. A happy team with a popular and respected coach will always attract players.

No magic answer sadly but I do feel for your predicament.

Cheers

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

GE — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 11:45:43 GMT

[quote][b]Tryer (05/08/2010)[/b][hr][quote][b]GE (05/08/2010)[/b][hr]Thanks Tryer, I agree with all you are saying.

The dad simply disagrees with the policy (he has told me so), and I believe he is telling his boy to ignore me. [/quote]

Your issue then is with the parent not the child......[/quote]

Yes, I know.

Tonight at training, we had a full game of tackle. Coaches and dads were on the field, all very amiable and happy.

And then it happened. A ruck formed, and SR (lets call him Johnny) picked up the ball from the back of the ruck and ran forward. He made 5m before being stopped and locked into a maul. Whilst play continued, I said:

[Coach] "Johnny how many times have I told you not to pick up the ball. Pass it from the ruck base, or leave it for the half!".

[Dad, who is standing 20m away]. " Don't listen to him, Johnny, he doesn't know what he is talking about. Just pick and drive"

:blink:

Well, what happened next was not pretty. Of course, I had no choice but to confront him, he had just undermined my authority in front of the boys. So I said:

[Coach, angry]: " Please do not contradict me, I am the coach"

[Dad, angry]: " Whoopee do, I can tell my boy anything I want".

[Coach, angrier]: " No, you don't have the right to come here a week before the finals and start coaching the kids, when I have been here all winter, week after week, coaching the boys."

[Dad, angrier] "So you want a medal?"

[Another Dad]. "Stop arguing in front of the boys!"

(fair enough). I stopped, continued with the game for another 30 minutes. After the game I approached the Dad, and said "I want peace, for the sake of the boys". He said: "You started the fight, not me. Just keep walking (or else)". I shrugged and walked away.

I will be speaking to the club president and advising that I am VERY upset about this incident, and seeking his advice on what to do next (if anything). I know I could have handled the matter better by being calmer, and I know he is a dad and has every right to advise his own kid, it is unacceptable for anyone to treat volunteer coaches this way.

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Tryer — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 09:50:45 GMT

[quote][b]didds (05/08/2010)[/b][hr][quote

I don't agree about not letting forwards pass away from rucks/mauls,

[/quote] I never said that. [/quote]

Apologies, a misunderstanding on my part caused by reading through too quickly........

RE: Forwards rule: Deliver the ball to the halfback

Tryer — Thu, 05 Aug 2010 09:48:34 GMT

[quote][b]GE (05/08/2010)[/b][hr]Thanks Tryer, I agree with all you are saying.

The dad simply disagrees with the policy (he has told me so), and I believe he is telling his boy to ignore me. [/quote]

Your issue then is with the parent not the child...... I have every sympathy with you as a very difficult one...... I haven't experienced one this bad but I expect all coaches have come across this of varying degrees. Do you issue a newsletter? Perhaps this area could be covered which would highlight to all your parents the conflict they can unknowingly create. Parents are focussed on their child but still want them to be part of a good team, their focus and encouragement often conflicts with this. If you explain what you are trying to achieve and ask for their help, ie. keep quiet (as much as they can) then their child will benefit.

Good luck.....