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RE: New front row laws

Walsallwizard — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:39:06 GMT

I started in the front row in the late 70's the scrum would form up when the ball was available and the front rows ready, it was quiet acceptable and expected then for the occasional exchange of pleasantries if anybody did anything idiotic and all in all the front rows sorted it all out. Props and hookers lasted for years and usually weren't expected to know their trade until late 20's when they had learned all the wiley old tricks and nuances that make up great front row play.
So with the new laws designed to make the game safer what to we see, props and hookers retiring injured or suffering severe injuries to their backs and necks on a regular basis. We are coaching players to spring load the scrum so they can hit harder and harder, what will it lead to more injures, lives and careers ruined.
Sometime new is not necessarily better, time to go back and have scrums form up without the legalised charging that used to be a penalty offence but is now controlled by the referees!

RE: New front row laws

didds — Tue, 19 Jun 2007 22:13:32 GMT

[quote][b]Tight 5 (15/06/2007)[/b][hr]
We must also remember that the law change also only came in on 1st jan, already well into our season, so we had no pre-season to prepare unlike the southern Hem teams (no bias there then).[/quote]

well, no more so than other law changes that have come into force half way through the SH season in the past.

In 1992 in New Zealand when i was playing down there the alterations to the ruck, maul, points system etc all came in half way through our season (I am the first Englishman to have scored a 5 point try as a result ;-)... we'd trained for it for a few weeks leading up to the introduction - but it was a triple whammy none the less. Was there any bias involved there as a counter argument? By definition (almost) any law changes especially these days will come in during somebody's season. Its easy to find conspiracies if you try hard enough ;-)

cheers

didds

RE: New front row laws

Tight 5 — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:05:08 GMT

I think ANFY B last post hit the nail on the head. No one likes change (in any aspect of life), & the more experienced players will take longer to adjust than younger ones who may have already experienced this type of engagement at junior levels.

The refs are also still finding their way with this law change, & it is always good to talk to the ref after the game & discuss the finer points with them, they are human as well.

We now try to get lower in the front row, also get the locks lower, even get the props to `sit' on the locks shoulders. Again this takes practice to get the balance right, & many clubs don`t seem to spend enough time looking at the mechanics of building a scrum.

We must also remember that the law change also only came in on 1st jan, already well into our season, so we had no pre-season to prepare unlike the southern Hem teams (no bias there then).

Hopefully with pre-season starting soon, teams will put some time into looking at their techniques, refs will have mastered the interpretations of the law changes more, & things will have iimproved

Just as an aside, if the IRB really wanted to stop problems with front collapse/injury, then they would reinforce the props binding laws, as we see week after week after week front rows collapsing even under the new laws as the props dont bind correctly, or at all. If they were forced to bind correctly (penalty/YC) then front row collapse would virtually disappear. Some of this responsibility must land on the refs shoulders as they seem to ignore this aspect. If a prop binds with his outside arm onto the opposition prop it keeps his shoulders up, stops boring in (to a degree) & keeps the front rows square & stops collapse. If you look at the dynamics you have 3 points of contact, feet, shoulders, arm bind, so you have a tri-pod that is stable. If you take one tri-pod leg away it collapses, i.e. remove the arm bind & you are going only one way, down. Perhaps this needs to be didiscussedn a new thread!!!!!

RE: New front row laws

ANFY B — Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:34:58 GMT

As a 33yr old whose played my whole career in all positions of the fromt row, I really dont see what the fuss is about, I know that new rules will come along and i know that I'll have to adapt to them (I always used to enjoy braing my outside arm on my thigh (for example)).

I dont think that the scrum is any more or less dangerous than it has ever been as there will always be people out there pushing the rules a bit too far.

A strange side effect that I have noticed is within the 3rd qand 4th teams that I have coached. The natural style of the team has always been an open fast rucking game, in general we have never been great scrummagers although have always held our own. I have noticed in games that I have played in and watched that much of the advantage within scrums have been lost by the physically bigger teams we have come against as the timing of the hit is more controlled allowing my teams to keep their shape, use their technique, and therefore gain better ball.

I would suggest that if youre a newer player the front row may not be as daunting, if that means that there are more people willing to put their hand up for front row then it would be a good thing.

RE: New front row laws

DanC — Fri, 01 Jun 2007 11:15:12 GMT

The Mike Cron stuff is outlined in the coachesinfo article. Basically spring loading the front rows.

Experienced front rows will know that such a manoeuvre requires:

1. A good ref 2. A stable ground 3. Lots of training 4. A compliant opposition (a side that can at least scrummage)

I am just about to do a five week programme with the Osprey Under 16 pack concentrating on scrum and lineout. Number 1 priority, maximising body position at engagement so players can cope with all the pushing, pulling and general awkwardness of the opposition. Then we will move to units together (prop, lock, flanker) and eventually to eight man. There are some principles, but also there needs to be flexibility in approach. A lot of it will be based on Secrets of the Front Row which I updated for the new laws.

RE: New front row laws

front_row — Wed, 30 May 2007 22:23:50 GMT

As a loosehead who has also played a fair amount at lock, I think the new engagement sequence will require some getting used to, but doesn't really power down the scrum. Apart from top-level rugby, the scrums weren't starting much more than an arms-length apart before anyway. Hip and ankle flexibility are key in order to get the prop's butts low enough without having a rounded back.

As with any change in the ref's cadence, timing is an issue, and many front rowers haven't flattened their back before the hit, or dropped their hips lower than their shoulders in time in order to avoid a collapse. Now that a few months have gone by, front rows should have adjusted, and collapses should be less common than previous years

RE: New front row laws

cjp — Tue, 29 May 2007 19:04:15 GMT

Dan, when you refer to Mike Cron etc are you referring to the techniques described in this article - http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/rugby/84/? Eggshell scrums etc.

RE: New front row laws

carlwhitley — Tue, 29 May 2007 17:14:56 GMT

[quote][b]Steve Wynne (29/05/2007)[/b][hr]We all need time to pick our spot and to adjust if something changes. In my experience, referees are insisting on us starting too close. For the first time in a long playing career I am often feeling vulnerable and have had more minor head clashes and compressions this season than would be usual.
[/quote]

I am a hooker too and this has hit the nail on the head.

Some of the referees at the level I play at (grass roots' roots :D), are so unsure, that they have us setting far too close, so that when we touch, we are almost engaging the scrummage. To counter this, some opposition front rows (mainly their loosehead) are taking a step back, after the touch. Which flies in the face of the touch - you set the distance, then move. Hmmm...

Also, some oppositions complain that our front row are too far away, before the touch has happened. I am constantly pointing out that the point of the touch is to get a measure on a distance.

Were these laws put into place to appease the Super 14 teams and the Australian national team, who (Carl Hayman aside) don't seem to scrummage well...:P

RE: New front row laws

DanC — Tue, 29 May 2007 15:55:20 GMT

It is interesting to hear the views of hookers - most of the comments I have had are from tall props. They have to sit before engagement and are often at a considerable disadvantage.

It is also notable that international sides are spring loading their packs to drive in (Mike Cron technique et al.)

RE: New front row laws

Steve Wynne — Tue, 29 May 2007 15:06:45 GMT

As a playing hooker (now veteran but ex county standard) and a senior / junior coach my main concern as far as safety goes is the possibility of too narrow a gap between the front rows. We all need time to pick our spot and to adjust if something changes. In my experience, referees are insisting on us starting too close. For the first time in a long playing career I am often feeling vulnerable and have had more minor head clashes and compressions this season than would be usual.

Also, due to the enforced closeness, it is harder to attain a good body position at the "hit" so that the shock/force is transmitted through a straight back. The change in geometry and timing means that my previous starting position leaves me too high at the hit as my feet are now further forward than I would like. I have found that I can end up with a curved back now if I am not careful. This can mean sometimes unavoidably taking the contact on the back of my neck - definitely not to be advised!

To counter this, I have to "sit" before engaging in a much lower position than I did before so that I can still drive slightly upwards at the hit. Previously I would have naturally arrived at a good, "comfortable" dynamic body position.

I find that I often have to move my feet now just after the hit - not something that I want to do (nor do I think it good for me as I would like a "straight" body/leg stance to transmit the shock to the floor). Unless the pack is trained to "pull back" this is nearly inevitable now.

Finally, I find that my shoulder positioning options are reduced as part of not having that fraction of a second of time to adjust during the engage.

My suggestion to refereeing would be that the props should touch on the upper arms , not the shoulders, which is what we are seeing mostly anyway.

Wynner

RE: New front row laws

Dave Copeland — Tue, 29 May 2007 14:49:19 GMT

The Laws seem to be for safety, but there is little to no safety when the frontrow especially the hooker is off balance, with no way of protecting himself at impact apart from holding onto his props. as i hooker, i feel the old way was better, in the fact that both hookers can decide where they want their pack placed, however the referee should draw both packs together if he feels there will be a cavalry charge at the engage. it seemed to work better that way, and there was little to no reset scrums in my good old 3rd team league, so why should the big boys in the prem etc need to reset so much.

RE: New front row laws

Toby — Fri, 25 May 2007 14:14:52 GMT

From what I understand, one aspect of the safety issue at the higher level is that many front rows feel less balanced under the new laws, particularly when going into the engagement. I've been told that in some cases their second row colleagues are practically holding them up. I don't know if this is unsafe, but I certainly would expect props and hookers to have more control than this.

RE: New front row laws

Morgs — Fri, 25 May 2007 12:58:53 GMT

not sure if the engagement is more dangerous, don't think its any less dangerous either though and as it was brought in to make the scrum safer it probably hasn't worked. I coach at youth and junior level so would love to hear from front row players why they think it is more dangerous.

New front row laws

DanC — Fri, 25 May 2007 11:58:21 GMT

A number of different opinions are flying around about the effectiveness of the new laws in the front row. Some current players are frustrated and some have gone as far as to say that it is dangerous.

It has posed new challenges for coaches in terms of coaching the engagement, especially for tall props who find the touch engage more difficult.

I have been talking to lots of props at all levels and would be interested to hear what others have found from coaching the new laws. Of course schools coaches might have some interesting feedback to give to their senior colleagues.