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RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

stuart3826 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:40:32 GMT

[quote][b]Red & Black fan (04/11/2009)[/b][hr]Stu... I was just getting to like you... ;)[/quote]Strange -nobody else does!:D

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

Red & Black fan — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:10:27 GMT

Stu... I was just getting to like you... ;)

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

stuart3826 — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:57:34 GMT

Invite him for a drink and discuss things with him gently - many refs will be happy for constructive advice. Don't confront him on the field. In law, rarely held to practice, the coach is allowed on the playing area only at half time, ad even then only at the ref's discretion. Upset him, and he may give you one of his eff off pills - I always carry a packet!

Please bear in mind, there is a section of law 6, which paraphrased means:

Rule 1 - the ref is always right
Rule 2, when the ref is wrong, consult Rule 1 above.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

david wiggins — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:40:30 GMT

Gents,

May i thank everyone for your very valuable input.Stuart,what is your advice in terms of how a coach should deal with a ref who is obviously not up to speed with what happens at scrum time.

David.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

GourouxPete — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 17:35:42 GMT

Transformational moments!

Mine was observing a composite coaching session at Kings Taunton some years back, with Jack Rowell, Jerry Guscott and Gareth Chilcott. I chose to watch Chilcott with the forwards; and my life has never been the same since!! What a revelation.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

stuart3826 — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 12:32:52 GMT

[quote][b]GourouxPete (13/10/2009)[/b][hr]

2 weeks ago though, the opposition SH's feet were sometimes 45deg to the line of the tunnel which was a massive clue. Having said that, in that game their entire front row were up to a whole range of tricks as well....so the ref must have been a full back when he was a player!! Perhaps a crash course in the dark arts might help him before someone starts quoting phrases like duty of care.[/quote]Dark Arts indeed. It's a bugbear at every level of the game that refs who used to be backs, don't get forward play. That changed for me when I did my level 2 coaching course - which took me out of my comfort zone somewhat!

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

GourouxPete — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:45:18 GMT

Stuart, thanks. This is clear now and provided our SH follows his oppo or stays in his quadrant on a lost ball all will be well. He'll no doubt continue to pester his oppo, which is good. He'll need to consider other options if the other side do a lot of pick and drives from 8, but can play that on the hoof.

I agree with the scrutinising order of priority at scrums; and crooked feeds are much harder to discern than not straight at lineouts. A ref keen to let the game flow will probably view the set pieces more as restarts than mini-contests, although this is disappointing. Certainly at our level there are many more lineouts than scrums in a game for instance.

2 weeks ago though, the opposition SH's feet were sometimes 45deg to the line of the tunnel which was a massive clue. Having said that, in that game their entire front row were up to a whole range of tricks as well....so the ref must have been a full back when he was a player!! Perhaps a crash course in the dark arts might help him before someone starts quoting phrases like duty of care.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

stuart3826 — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:58:42 GMT

[quote][b]david wiggins (13/10/2009)[/b][hr]Hi Guys,

Thank you for your input to my question.This is what happened in my gamelast week.

I also thought i'd go with the ref.This was his interpretation.My 9 can retire once the ball is hooked.In line with the rear foot, on the left of the scrum,BUT,not more than 2m from the scrum.

Iam also in contact with a friend in Devon over this matter.At the Torquay game on Saturday were an assessor and the head referee developement officer for the SW.This is his interpretation.

My 9 can retire to the rear foot,BUT,only on the right side.

Surely this is not acceptable.All these different view points could have an adverse effect on a result.I take exception to the fact that as a coach i am at the mercy of the interpretation of whoever is refereeing.To my mind,he isthere to referee the game as it unfolds.I should not have to tell my players at the last minute,what we are doing this week at scrum defence depending on the referee.It means that we are being told how to play.That can never be right.

This needs to be cleard up.What do you think Dan/Didds ?

David.[/quote]
[quote]20.12 OFFSIDE AT THE SCRUM
(a) When the scrum is set, the scrum half not throwing the ball into the scrum must take up a
position either at the same side of the scrum as the scrum half throwing in the ball or
behind the offside line defined for other players.
(b) Offside for scrum-halves. When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of that
team is offside if both feet are in front of the ball while it is still in the scrum. If the scrum
half has only one foot in front of the ball, the scrum half is not offside.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(c) When a team has won the ball in a scrum, the scrum half of the opposing team is offside if
that scrum half steps in front of the ball with either foot while the ball is still in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(d) The scrum half whose team does not win possession of the ball must not move to the
opposite side of the scrum and overstep the offside line. For that scrum half that runs
through the hindmost foot of that player’s team in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(e) The scrum half whose team does not win possession of the ball must not move away from
the scrum and then remain in front of the offside line. For that scrum half that runs through
the hindmost foot of that player’s team in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(f) Any player may be scrum half, but a team can have only one scrum half at each scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the offside line
(g) Offside for players not in the scrum. Players who are not in the scrum and who are not
the team’s scrum half, are offside if they remain in front of their offside line or overstep the
offside line which is a line parallel to the goal lines and 5 metres behind the hindmost player
of each team in a scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the offside line
(h) If the hindmost foot of a team is on or behind that team’s goal line, the offside line for
scrum halves and non-participants is the goal line.
(i) Loitering. When a scrum is forming, players not taking part in it must retire to their offside
line without delay. If they do not, they are loitering. Loiterers must be penalised.
Penalty: Penalty Kick on the offside line[/quote] Here's a link[url]http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/law_20_en.pdf[/url]

Sorry for such a lengthy quote from law, but it's worth reiterating - this isn't about interpretation. The law is clear on who may go where. You're offside or you're not.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

stuart3826 — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:49:14 GMT

In the first place, I believe I have a reasonably good command of the scrum, but I have a unique advantage - I am a fourth official in the Premiership, and have been able to discuss things in detail with professional refs, and professional forwards coaches.

If one side is not taking the hit, I will recognise this from their backs - they will arch at the moment of engagement, which indicates their starting position is incorrect. I'll ping it, warn them, and if it happens again, free kick them.

Next scrum, if it happens again, immediate FK, no warning.

Next time, PK with a n advisory - "you are limiting my options", and if it happens again, YC for repeat offending

So how can I tell if it's an early drive? If the scrum moves one way and then back the other, it indicates one has gone early and the other is countering.

Am I givig away the black art of reffing the scrum here?:w00t:

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

david wiggins — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:40:02 GMT

Hi Stuart,

Last week we were continually pinged for pushing before the ball came in.The fact was that the oppo scrum could not handle our,'Engage'.Despite my captain talking to the referee,we were still pinged.At half time,i had to tell my pack to use certain methods.This they did and we were not pinged for the remainder of the game.In conversation with the referee after the game,i explained all this to him.His reply was,'I am learning'.Everyone has to learn,i have no issue with that and in the end it did not effect the result.I was dissapointed we got no free kicks for not putting the ball in.I would like to know how you handle a similar situation.

David.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

david wiggins — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 09:30:01 GMT

Hi Guys,

Thank you for your input to my question.This is what happened in my game last week.

I also thought i'd go with the ref.This was his interpretation.My 9 can retire once the ball is hooked.In line with the rear foot, on the left of the scrum,BUT,not more than 2m from the scrum.

I am also in contact with a friend in Devon over this matter.At the Torquay game on Saturday were an assessor and the head referee developement officer for the SW.This is his interpretation.

My 9 can retire to the rear foot,BUT,only on the right side.

Surely this is not acceptable.All these different view points could have an adverse effect on a result.I take exception to the fact that as a coach i am at the mercy of the interpretation of whoever is refereeing.To my mind,he is there to referee the game as it unfolds.I should not have to tell my players at the last minute,what we are doing this week at scrum defence depending on the referee.It means that we are being told how to play.That can never be right.

This needs to be cleard up.What do you think Dan/Didds ?

David.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

stuart3826 — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:21:35 GMT

[quote][b]GourouxPete (12/10/2009)[/b][hr]Thanks, guys for all your input. I took the inferred advice that asking the ref is best.

Saturday I (almost laboriously) clarified his view which was that SH either follows his oppo OR he retreats 5m with the rest of the backs until the ball is out (not hooked). Our SH was happy and never pinged.

Later on Saturday I watched some Heineken Cup (or le Ache Cup as Byron Kelleher put it) and defending SH's were clearly allowed the retreat to the 8's back foot option as well. Same game - same hymn sheet?

From my point of view we'll just go with the flow as whatever each individual ref wants he gets! Curiously our chappie on Saturday is the 2nd in as many matches to not understand the geometry of SH putting the ball in straight...is this a trend??[/quote]This thing about putting the ball in straight is a bugbear of mine. Let's put my personal slant on it.

I was taught as a ref, my priorities are Safety, Equity and Law, in that order.

Safety - There are over 40 offences that can be committed at scrum time. I look first to protect the front row - Safety. Binding, boring, twisting, dipping or forcing up can all have an effect on the safety of the front row. So after I've looked at that, I may have time to consider the angle of the put in.

Equity - is there a fair competition for the ball - not if Safety is compromised, no.

Law - by the time I've got to here, the ball is now back in open play.

I've discussed this point with several notable names from the world of refereeing, such as Chris White, Wayne Barnes and Tony Spreadbury. They tend to concur.
:hehe:

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

GourouxPete — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 08:35:05 GMT

Thanks, guys for all your input. I took the inferred advice that asking the ref is best.

Saturday I (almost laboriously) clarified his view which was that SH either follows his oppo OR he retreats 5m with the rest of the backs until the ball is out (not hooked). Our SH was happy and never pinged.

Later on Saturday I watched some Heineken Cup (or le Ache Cup as Byron Kelleher put it) and defending SH's were clearly allowed the retreat to the 8's back foot option as well. Same game - same hymn sheet?

From my point of view we'll just go with the flow as whatever each individual ref wants he gets! Curiously our chappie on Saturday is the 2nd in as many matches to not understand the geometry of SH putting the ball in straight...is this a trend??

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

david wiggins — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:29:16 GMT

So do you also agree that my 9 can only take up that position once the ball has been hooked,therefore won,as Stuart suggests,

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

referee — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:01:36 GMT

The defending 9 has 3 options at a scrum:-

1. stand next to the opposition 9 and follw the ball round, remaining on-side and within close proximity of the scrum

2. stand along the line of the hindmost foot of his scrum, usually the 8, anywhere across the pitch.

3. retire to the 5m offside line, with the rest of the 3/4's.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

referee — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 13:56:05 GMT

the defending 9 has 3 starting options at a scrum:-

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

stuart3826 — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:45:19 GMT

[quote][b]david wiggins (08/10/2009)[/b][hr]Thanks Stewart,

Sorry to labour the point,i just want to get this absolutely clear in my mind.

So can my 9 move back and round the scrum just behind the rear foot,take up a position to defend,once the ball has been hooked,therefore won?

Very often,the ball is slow through their scrum or the 8 not that quick at picking up.It seems to methat if my 9 can indeed move once the ball is hooked,there is a fair chance that we have,in effect,an extra defender available,which of course is what i'm after.

Didds,

Take your point about the ref.I didn't push the issue at the time.I would appreciate you view on this.When he gave his front row briefing,he told us that he wanted," A creditable put in ".I have 2 questions here.

1. Is this the start of the erosion of scrummage law ? If it is,we all know that in the long term,the game will no longer be for players of all shapes etc.Has anyone else come across this ?

2. If i get it again,i shall ask if the same applies to the throw into the line !!

David.

[/quote]David, you may use your 9 in that way yes - don't be surprised if your oppos complain loud and long! You know the sort of thing - "He has to let him up sir!" Another well known urban myth!

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

david wiggins — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:10:44 GMT

Thanks Stewart,

Sorry to labour the point,i just want to get this absolutely clear in my mind.

So can my 9 move back and round the scrum just behind the rear foot,take up a position to defend,once the ball has been hooked,therefore won ?

Very often,the ball is slow through their scrum or the 8 not that quick at picking up.It seems to me that if my 9 can indeed move once the ball is hooked,there is a fair chance that we have,in effect,an extra defender available,which of course is what i'm after.

Didds,

Take your point about the ref.I didn't push the issue at the time.I would appreciate you view on this.When he gave his front row briefing,he told us that he wanted," A creditable put in ".I have 2 questions here.

1. Is this the start of the erosion of scrummage law ? If it is,we all know that in the long term,the game will no longer be for players of all shapes etc.Has anyone else come across this ?

2. If i get it again,i shall ask if the same applies to the throw into the line !!

David.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

stuart3826 — Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:38:41 GMT

Ref's head on.

For clarification, the ball is won when it has been hooked.

Oppo scrum half must either be with the scrum half putting the ball in or 5m back with the other players.

If he stays with the scrum and.....

your team has lost the ball, you may not move round the scrum and go forward of your teams offside line - that is the back foot of the scrum until the ball is out. Neither may you move away from the scrum and remain forward of the offside line - again, back foot.

In law [quote]The scrum half whose team does not win possession of the ball must not move to the opposite side of the scrum and overstep the offside line. For that scrum half that runs through the hindmost foot of that player’s team in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
(e) The scrum half whose team does not win possession of the ball must not move away from the scrum and then remain in front of the offside line. For that scrum half that runs through the hindmost foot of that player’s team in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick[/quote]

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

didds — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:02:39 GMT

[quote][b]david wiggins (30/09/2009)[/b][hr]Thanks Dan,

Last Saturday i went to confirm this with the Ref.He said heregarded it as illegal and we therefore would be penalised.I obviously didn't want to upset him and we were denied a defensive tool that i like to use.I thought i would just check it out - yet another example of the value of this site.

Regards.

David.[/quote]

.. except that the problem you have is that when you next meet this ref even though you know you are correct, he will still ping you for it :-(

didds

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

david wiggins — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:53:21 GMT

Yes - He has to start next to the 9 putting the ball in.The IRB laws say that he may move,as Dan suggests,once the ball has been won.It is here that is open to Ref interpretation.When is the ball won ? When the 2 hooks it,or when it's at the 8s feet ?

Wiggo.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

JDink — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:40:05 GMT

I believe the SH can only start next to the throwing in SH or back 5 with the other backs. After the ball has been won, he can retreat to the last foot and move along that line as wide as he wants.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

david wiggins — Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:09:33 GMT

Thanks Dan,

Last Saturday i went to confirm this with the Ref.He said he regarded it as illegal and we therefore would be penalised.I obviously didn't want to upset him and we were denied a defensive tool that i like to use.I thought i would just check it out - yet another example of the value of this site.

Regards.

David.

RE: your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

DanC — Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:16:38 GMT

He has to either start by the scrum half who is putting in the ball or can start at the offside line (the rear foot). He can put himself anywhere across the field from this position.

your scrum half at oppo scrum put in

david wiggins — Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:13:13 GMT

Hi Boys,

Can someone please clear up what the defending 9 can do on oppo put into the scrum.Just down loaded Dan's ELV review.It seems to suggest that the defending 9 can defend on a line behind the rear foot.If so when can he move to take up this position.

Wiggo.