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RE: JUSTICE 4

Ruckoff — Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:38:36 GMT

If the IRB are unhappy with the decision of their own disciplinary panel, perhaps they should wear some armbands...:w00t:

The whole point of the inquiry was to find out if the game was brought into disrepute by a group that was dissatisfied by an IRB decision. Do the IRB they not see the irony of them now moaning about the outcome of inquiry?:D

This whole "targetting" thing is complete bullocks really isnt it.
The initial ban was just one of a bunch inconsistent citings and bans.
The process is flawed we all know that. But the citing commissions are largely independant and different for every competition. They also are made up of legal experts.
Whilst the actual sanctions and citing process itself are a bit flakey the idea that its biased against or for certain countries/players is a total falsehood.

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:51:26 GMT

The iRB are a shower of £$*@... they are SO quiet about the Harlequins bloodgate scandal (as were the RFU!) but are happy to jump on a group of ppl who were simply highlighting a FACT... whether or not the forum was the right one is open to debate, but they DID IT...I took my hat off to them because like it or not they were representing so many of us at different levels of the game who are affected by the pompous clowns at the iRB. I still CANT believe that the beautiful game is run by such a bunch of incompetents... if I was a Saffa I'd be chatting to the other Trination countries, France, Argentina, USA, Canada and the Pacific Rim grouping (& maybe a couple of the developing countries who stand to gain more going with that grouping than continue being shafted by the iRB- Ireland, Scotland & Wales would probably benefit too but would probably get bullied by the RFU/ iRB into staying in the current set up) & go about forming a rugby governing body that is more interested in actually growing the game, ensuring consistency in standards & not its own self importance... ughh! I'm DISGUSTED! :sick:

RE: JUSTICE 4

Ruckoff — Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:40:13 GMT

The South African Rugby Union (Saru), squad members and team officials have been fined after being found guilty of bringing the game into disrepute.

The Springboks have been punished for wearing armbands in the 4 July Test against the British and Irish Lions in protest at Bakkies Botha's suspension.

Botha's two-week ban was for dangerous charging at a ruck in the second Test.

Saru must pay £10,000 and each player involved £200, apart from captain John Smit who faces a £1,000 fine.

However, the International Rugby Board (IRB) has expressed its disappointment at the level of punishment in the ruling, delivered by the independent disciplinary committee, which is a feature of the IRB justice system.

The committee featured two legal experts in Retired Honourable Justice John Hansen (New Zealand) and Judge Guillermo Tragant (Argentina) plus former Australia captain John Eales.

In a statement the IRB said: "Whilst welcoming the guilty verdicts, the IRB is extremely disappointed at the level of sanctions imposed against the South African Rugby Union and its players in light of the clear findings that they have brought the game of rugby into disrepute and acted in a manner which is prejudicial to the best interests of the IRB and the game of rugby. "

The statement continued by saying the IRB is considering whether to appeal in order to force tougher sanctions, which it must do within 14 days.

The protest came about after South Africa failed in their appeal against Botha's suspension. For the final Test against the Lions, each player wore a white armband saying "Justice 4", in reference to Botha's shirt number.

The Committee ruled that "the playing arena is no place for protest" and that the wearing of the armbands "showed a serious lack of respect and consideration for their opponents".

Saru was also criticised "because they allowed the game and the IRB to be brought into disrepute by not only by failing to attempt to prevent this protest, but by approving of it and effectively consenting to conduct which was prejudicial to the best interests of the IRB and of the game".

BTW Jackal - Can you qualify your random statement that the comments apart from Red and Blacks are from an emotional point please? My comments have been logical and unbiased throughout, please read and re-read before posting unwarranted, unjustified remarks.

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:04:05 GMT

:D Ah mate, you're missing out on some REAL rugby! England WON something!?... Bloody hell, spread the word, get the party started! ;)

RE: JUSTICE 4

didds — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:11:51 GMT

here in the NH we're too busy watching england win the ashes to bother about some match happening half way around the world at the wrong time of year ;-)

didds

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:04:35 GMT

Sorry to dredge this one up again, but did anyone see Joe Rockocoko's (sp!) three (yep 3!) shoulder charges/ counter rucking hits/ attempts at cleaning out (sp!) in today's (22nd Aug) Trinations ABs Vs Wallabies match (great game BTW!) with no sanction, no citing, no commentators jumping up & down. Also funny how no one in the NH is jumping up & down now & yet he did EXACTLY what Bakkies Botha did in the 2nd test Vs the B & I Lions... er correction, TWICE more, but he didnt hurt anyone... Its time the law makers, the citing commisioners, the disciplinary panels, the iRB & the referees got together & sorted their sorry selves out for the good of this great game...

RE: JUSTICE 4

Jackal — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:17:25 GMT

I have to say looking at the footage a number of times now that the "HIT" seems good to me (in my humble opinion). I agree fully with Red n Black and his comments( and his Eng is good enough for me!) and I think the other comments made to counter his well put forward sound argument are from an emotional point of view rather than an objective one.
I started to watch the game again and apart from it being quite an ugly game to watch players from both sides were throwing and hitting rucks with reckless abandon..the intensity was incredible!
In a game like that, I would like to see the volunteer refs to stand in the middle of that environment and make those calls...not an easy task at all!

So I feel he (BB) was hard done by and the issue used as a crutch by all and sundry. Me Up North here, trying to coach and help young men reach their potential. On the team standing together front, I dont have an issue with that either..if no-one is occasionally checking the IRB then who checks on them? I dont see the IRB much in the developing countries but you look at the big unions and their offerings and there they are in full regalia...so should they be pushed a little to find humility...Hell yes!!

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:37:43 GMT

Agreed- there are LOTS of holes between 'the Law' & the reality on the pitches, particularly in the professional game... the problem for young coaches making their way is do you coach the short cuts to compete on an equal footing, or do you try & stay pure & struggle? THIS is one of the MAJOR issues I have with the iRB... I understand the need to get TV revenue & the desire to grow the game, but sadly, the game we see on tv & the game that the MAJORITY play are drifting further apart each season...

RE: JUSTICE 4

Angus — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:49:36 GMT

[quote][b]Red & Black fan (10/07/2009)[/b][hr]Just clarifying re: Boks on their feet in above post- the Law in terms of rucking states that players must bind onto team mate at breakdown- Botha HAD no teammates to bind to in that instance... [/quote]
While not questioning the letter of the Law how is this incident really any different from a player doing a crocodile roll on an opponent over the ball to move them out of the way or lifting a leg or legs away from the ball and as a result moving the player out of the way

In addition the crocodile roll involves them intentionally ending up off their feet

All these actions are seen multiple times in any game, at all levels, and are even coached, yet they all involve a player entering a ruck without being bound on a team mate

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:43:39 GMT

Yep, we are agreed on some issues so there's hope for the game! ;) I think its great that we can discuss/ debate different points of view- just a pity that the iRB seem to be more interested in the game at professional level and not grassroots...

Point taken re: NH/ SH... on Danny Care, if you look at that incident again, the player he hit wasnt anywhere near the ball & he (DC) didnt come through the gate... interesting point about POC & Burger (who by rights shouldnt have been in the game by then... but THATS another story! :D )

I would hope that the sanction for going off one's feet at a ruck would be a penalty, whether there is intent (going off feet to kill/ slow down ball) OR its accidental (losing footing, being knocked over by a team mate from behind/ opponent moving) ... but just as we see some things differently, so do the refs on the day & as you pointed out, the judicial panel.

RE: JUSTICE 4

Ruckoff — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:35:45 GMT

I think we agree on most points here apart from whether it was a shoulder charge or not - C’est la vie

The important point of principle going forward is the application of this law, and in particular when a player lawfully binds or attempts to bind for the purpose of this law. This is what Bakkies was cited, banned and lost his appeal on.

As I have previously stated - Basically a shoulder charge as there’s no attempt to bind onto the ruck or wrap up the player. Technically a penalty but not sure whether it was worthy of a citing, the Lions management didn’t think so the citing officer did. At the end of the day Botha has injured a player through illegal clearing out at the ruck. This demonstrates exactly why this is illegal and it should be enforced consistently, Botha is not the only player guilty of this week in week out on a rugby field at all levels.

This is not an issue with SH teams, see comment above regarding players week in week out. I think BOD should have been cited for the no arm challenge in the game along with Sheriden for the punch to the groin.

POC was engaged (using his arms) with Burger before Burger moved to the side to defend the inside channel causing POC to come off his feet. Not intentional and totally irrelevant.

Danny Care (England SH) was binned in the 6 nations for charging at a player who was stood at the ruck with his back turned, it was cynical, dangerous and petulant. Bakkies illegal charge (as the citing officer and the appeals panel saw it) was no where near as bad which is why I was surprised he was cited but it was technically a penalty offence.

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:27:07 GMT

Just clarifying re: Boks on their feet in above post- the Law in terms of rucking states that players must bind onto team mate at breakdown- Botha HAD no teammates to bind to in that instance... it is debatable whether he used a shoulder or attempted to bind onto opponent wuith inside / right arm- given that there was a Lions player falling over the ball by his inside arm perhaps this prevented that bind IF he was attempting it?...

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:22:45 GMT

As they say in the classics, 'assumption is the mother of all £$%^ *@s!' :D

:) I love when coaches havbe a difference of opinion! :)

Firstly, I must apologise for my grammatical & spelling errors- english is not my first language! I meant shoulders below hips... but you knew that right... NOT. Thanks for the clip- strange that Sky only shopw the one angle dont you think? Perhaps another angle might show a bind with the right arm (perhaps the Lions technical guys saw this & thats why their coaches were happy with the incident & publicvly supported Bakkies Botha? Also strange that similart incidents in 6 Nations games arent made a meal about or is it only an issue with SH teams?

I coach to the law, my players & their opponents' safety is paramount & I dont advocate dirty play, but I am no shrinking violet either- rugby IS a contact sport- Adam Jones was unlucky to get hit in an awkward position- the player who injured him has a record but in this instance was within the laws. There WERE no Springbok players on their feet contesting for ball (you can see Burger, De Villiers & Pienaar standing defending the inside channel) therefore he was entitled to clear the ruck (counter ruck?) as long as he entered from behind the gate & stayed on his feet, all of which he complied with... also you seem a bit quiet about no 5 (POC i believe) going off his feet over the ball in the same ruck...

RE: JUSTICE 4

Ruckoff — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:10:39 GMT

“How does a 2m tall person hit a guy in a ruck who is on his feet with his hips below his shoulders?” – Naturally your hips are always below your shoulders, so yes your Biomechanics supervisor was REALLY poor!

It was a shoulder charge which is illegal, no use of the arms, watch the video again - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7CM-_JlG64

Do not assume that all coaches will coach the way you do. The coaching courses I have attended always taught the use of arms and binding at the ruck. Just becuase referres don't always penalise players, it doesn't make it legal.

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 11:21:02 GMT

If his shoulders were below hip height in this particular 'illegal' charge then my daughter is a monkey... How does a 2m tall person hit a guy in a ruck who is on his feet with his hips below his shoulders? I think my Biomechanics supervisor mustve been |REALLY poor :D ... the hit was legal, the issue here if we stick to the letter of the law (which refs at MOST levels dont!) is with the binding & IF he'd been pinned on that, I suspect ALL coaches, including the learned B & I Lions coaches would have had less to say? And if that is the case, then ALL the players we see on tv are doing it wrong 7 we're all coaching it wrong anyway because it happens ALL the time...

RE: JUSTICE 4

Ruckoff — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 12:19:47 GMT

Red & Black fan

You have missed something – It is NOT brave to write ‘Justice 4’ on an armband and wear it on a rugby field. If they believed in this so much as a TEAM, UNITED then they should have gone to the formal appeals process in fancy dress of their choosing and chant Bakkies name over and over to get their point across. They should not have brought this to the field of play! We don’t want players questioning/arguing with referees throughout matches over every decision like we get with football, the same should be applied to the disciplinary hearings. Rugby is a game of respect.

Inconsistency in refereeing will always happen as the laws of the game are interpreted differently by all referees. The disciplinary hearings are usually correct in their judgement, it is the length of the bans that are inconsistent. As I previously said, I think the judge got it right as Bakkies did an illegal shoulder charge.

No, the game will not have to change as counter rucking is still legal, as long as your shoulders are not below hip height and you attempt to bind onto the ruck or wrap up the player.

The IRB issued a directive to referees in 2007 to strictly enforce this ruling and clamp down on illegal shoulder charges at rucks, (as we have also seen with directive to enforce straight put ins at scrums in 2008), the directives aren’t always applied by referees (Inconsistency in refereeing )plus the fact there are 19 different offences at the breakdown to watch for.

One good outcome of the Botha incident might be that the game will cut down rapidly on incidents of defenceless forwards being blindsided.it is a thoroughly dangerous and petulant act. Indeed, the sooner the game returns to proper rucking with bound forwards driving over the top of the ball, the better.

If this type of charge happens in open play the refeeree gives a penalty 9 times out of 10. It makes no differnce that it happened at a breakdown. If the South Africans don't like it they should go and play American Football where you don't have to use the arms in a tackle or bind on to a player.

And as for Bakkies Botha as a player, He has a colourful disciplinary record. It started in his debut for the Springboks against France, where he was handed a yellow card, and continued to such notable sentences as being suspended for eight weeks after allegedly spitting at, biting and eye-gouging Australian hooker Brendan Cannon in 2003.
The following year Botha also made the headlines for the wrong reasons as it was alleged that he committed a similar offense on All Black lock Chris Jack during a Test match for the Springboks in Christchurch.In this year he was banned for 3 weeks after he admitted striking Waratahs captain Phil Waugh with his forearm.

So I really don't see what the fuss is about - A player with a bad disciplinary record gets a 2 week ban for an illegal shoulder charge.

RE: JUSTICE 4

Ferret — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 10:02:31 GMT

I wasn't going to add any more but I have to say I like the mental image of Matfield conjured up by Angus' last post!

Cheers - Ferret

RE: JUSTICE 4

Angus — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:32:32 GMT

Where does it stop though?

If they felt that the ref was a twat in the second game would it have been ok to have armbands saying "no more twats" and Matfield with TWAT across the front of his head gear? ;)

Seriously though while I still feel Botha was very hard done by I don't think this is the way to get any resolution and instead it gives the impression that the Boks are a species apart or at least think they are

What else could they have done other than just grit their teeth? I don't know but surely that should have come down to their appeal when they had the opportunity to put forward the arguments in favour of the ban being dropped but unfortunately we are not privy to the case presented and how it was viewed apart from the fact it was rejected

Possibly the publication of international tribunals and appeals would help clarify for everyone on how rugby is being judged at the international level and laws interpreted

RE: JUSTICE 4

Red & Black fan — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 15:20:05 GMT

... think I missed something here! In an age where the world is full of cowards who simply accept the status quo, I think the SA team very brave to have made a stand primarily for their team mate, but I believe it is crucial, essentially on behalf of ALL coaches who want a game that is CONSISTENTLY refereed on the pitch and judged in the Disciplinary hearings... whether their action was right or wrong is not the point- the point is they stood for SOMETHING they believed in, as a TEAM, UNITED... is that not what we coach? On the Botha incident, I was happy enough with its legalities & there are some coaches i highly respect on both sides of the equation- the call was made by the judge & if thats the decision, then the game as we know it will need to change & counter rucking is essentially illegal...

As for the Bok 'coach' (I hesitate to call him that!) HE is the guy who should be answering a bringing the game into disrepute charge! UNBELIEVABLE stupidity coming out of his mouth...SA Rugby would do well to put a muzzle on him!

RE: JUSTICE 4

Ferret — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:30:09 GMT

I agree with ruckoff and I also agree with Angus. An example was made of Botha but what about everybody else?

I don't know if we will ever get the consistency we need.

Do you think rugby needs to move to an American football-style set up with more than one referee on the pitch? That would enable more infringements to be picked up. On the other hand it could lead to a "flag" on virtually every phase of play. Controversial suggestion for a wet Tuesday morning ....

Cheers Ferret

RE: JUSTICE 4

Ruckoff — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:04:49 GMT

I've looked at the replay several times at full speed and in slow motion. I would assume the citing was based on him having shoulders below hip height as well as leading with his shoulder with no use of the arms. Basically a shoulder charge as there’s no attempt to bind onto the ruck or wrap up the player. Technically a penalty but not sure whether it was worthy of a citing, the Lions management didn’t think so the citing officer did.

At the end of the day Botha has injured a player through illegal clearing out at the ruck. This demonstrates exactly why this is illegal and it should be enforced consistently, Botha is not the only player guilty of this week in week out on a rugby field at all levels.

As for the armbands - everyone wearing one of those armbands should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute. Players and management should not be allowed to publicly challenge the legitimacy of the disciplinary processes with impunity.

RE: JUSTICE 4

Angus — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:01:30 GMT

After posting this I saw there was a statement about the protest on the SA web site so they have brought it into the open so it will enable us to see how it is handled between the IRB and the SARFU

As coaches I believe inconsistency in the interpretation and application of the laws is one of the hardest things to handle

JUSTICE 4

Angus — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:37:33 GMT

Despite the SA commentators informing us last night that this meant "justice for all" I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to realise it is a pretty direct attack on the IRB regarding the suspension of Bakkies Botha. I mean Matfield even had justice across the front of this head gear

I have looked at the video of the Botha "incident" many times and can find absolutely nothing wrong with it and no reason he should have been cited let alone suspended and feel Botha was made into some sort of scapegoat because of the injury Jones was unlucky enough to receive.

Having said this though, I can also see no justification for the SA players and obviously management to deliberately challenge the IRB in this way - mind you if the IRB are as on the ball as the SA commentators there is no danger of them realising they have even been challenged :cool: