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RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

matty p — Mon, 16 May 2011 16:30:41 GMT

Thanks EKW. I am a long-term deadlifter. I once read, as an answer to the question who should do deadlifts, "anyone that stands up would benefit from deadlifts". I even have my old mum doing them.

On another note, my high school team finished its league season yesterday, going undefeated and finishing top. I (and therefore they) have benefited greatly from the tidbits I pick up on this forum, so thanks to all!

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EKW — Mon, 16 May 2011 16:16:01 GMT

matty, if you are still working on the RDLs and you have now corrected the imbalance, it is time to change emphasis from resistance in the downward motion and introduce deadlifts. Ensure your partner keeps an eye on technique to protect your back and if you are unsure of the action do not attempt it or get somebody qualified to show you. You need to start to engage your quads and hips to progress.

I know this is off topic but decided to write this here rather than send a PM in case others are following your example. However, if you have any concerns, please do not hesitate to send me a PM.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EKW — Fri, 06 May 2011 17:20:53 GMT

[quote][b]matty p (06/05/2011)[/b][hr]EKW - I know this is getting a little off the original topic, but I concede. I've been test running RDLs to supplement my squats, and the results are staggering. I've always been a relatively strong squatter (currently working off 4 plates, did 5+ in my prime), my knees are good and I do proper deep squats, which does work my hammies - or so I thought. My last 3 squat sessions I've added in 3 sets of RDLs afterwards. The only downside is that my wife wants to ban me from doing them because she doesn't like living with a 41 year old cripple. Both my training partner and I feel the effects has been very beneficial. So thanks for the tip.

Cheers.[/quote]

Thank you very much for the feedback matty; I am really pleased to hear you are benefiting from RDLs, hopefully after a few more weeks, you will feel [and be] awesome!

As you were performing your squats correctly, you would have been working your hamstrings; just not as much as you would have been working your quadriceps... keep it up and your wife will soon notice, and appreciate, the effect they will have on your gluteals ;).

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EKW — Fri, 06 May 2011 17:13:03 GMT

[quote][b]steve johnson (06/05/2011)[/b][hr] ... Would the time invested in this be at the expense of 'pure' rugby training? If it's in addition, then the time expended brings us to almost professional level. [/quote]

Absolutely not, to your question Steve.

This question has been asked, in various ways, in various threads, so I know it is of wide interest. I will try to answer it generally and not necessarily in answer to your post Steve, as I thoroughly understand your viewpoint.

Coming at it from a different angle [other than that of a coach], I see a definite separation of 'fitness' and 'strength and conditioning'.

Fitness is all part and parcel of any sport specific training; quite a good deal of the drills involve 'fitness', you cannot avoid it, especially when you include a warm up and a warm/cool down, therefore, it is the responsibility of the coach and is included in the rugby training sessions.

Strength and Conditioning is a totally different matter. I do not believe it is the responsibility of the rugby coach... I am quite fierce about this and unless the coach is qualified [and I am not talking about a 10 week course on weight lifting, gym instructing etc], they should not even attempt it. There is a reason we spend four years at Uni and continue with professional development and I assure you, it is not for our own good! Our insurance fees to be able to coach S&C dwarf any paid to coach sport. You should also bear in mind that your RFU, ECB etc insurance fees and legal costs do not cover you if you cause any injury in this area. As an injury pathologist, I am involved with many medical insurance companies looking to claw back their payments... if you are not insured, and are negligent, it could cost you your house!

I am not sure why any rugby coach would want to coach S&C. If you want your number 10 to have kicking coaching, would you go to a pace bowling coach? If your number 15 cannot catch a plumb pass, would you send them to a hockey coach? S&C is very specialised and you need a good qualification in Anatomy and Physiology to even start.

Spending time with an S&C Coach and subsequently in the gym comes no where near the amount of time the professionals spend; S&C is only a component of their day. In fact it is only a component of their physiology on the whole :D.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

matty p — Fri, 06 May 2011 15:06:42 GMT

EKW - I know this is getting a little off the original topic, but I concede. I've been test running RDLs to supplement my squats, and the results are staggering. I've always been a relatively strong squatter (currently working off 4 plates, did 5+ in my prime), my knees are good and I do proper deep squats, which does work my hammies - or so I thought. My last 3 squat sessions I've added in 3 sets of RDLs afterwards. The only downside is that my wife wants to ban me from doing them because she doesn't like living with a 41 year old cripple. Both my training partner and I feel the effects has been very beneficial. So thanks for the tip.

Cheers.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

steve johnson — Fri, 06 May 2011 10:22:55 GMT

This is an interesting and very controversial area for young rugby players. From the above replies, it is very, very clear that if youngsters are to be encouraged to weight train, then they need a great deal of supervision to ensure good technique and safety. Would the time invested in this be at the expense of 'pure' rugby training? If it's in addition, then the time expended brings us to almost professional level.

Margot Wells (who - we would all agree - has some pedigree) firmly advocates against weights - even to older ages than mentioned herein. When asked by some ambitious 16 year old players, she had them try to do a proper squat - no weights - onto a chair and stand up (few could so it properly), then do a number of press ups (again press up form was not that great). If youngsters can do a suitable number of press ups (for example 10 sets starting at (say) 25, then 24, then 23 down to 16) the power increase will be enough for the game of rugby, and also press ups do work the whole body - especially the core.

As an aside, at a junior World championship in Tokyo a few years ago, when the England team shared a dressing room with the New Zealand players, and they began to change, the NZ boys looked most anxiously at the super-muscularly developed English lads - they were almost dwarfed by them. However, once they caught the ball at kick off, they proceeded to run the England team ragged, and all the English muscle was of little value..

It sounds as if I'm anti-weights - I'm not. As soon as possible, we want to see a sheath of muscle over those tiny shoulders and collar bones, and in Japan, my school players came in at 7 a.m. before school twice a week to build up that muscle. But, we also had rugby practice from 4:30 p.m. every day. There has to be a balance, and rugby time should not be sacrificed for weight time.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EastMids Mini Coach — Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:50:08 GMT

This link has some useful "evidence" for the benefits and appropriateness of resistance training for young players.

http://www.sarugby.co.za/boksmart/pdf/BokSmart%202010-Youth%20Resistance%20Training%20Evidence-Based%20Guidelines.pdf

Like most things if it is done properly it is safe, but you must be sure that things are appropriate and managed correctly.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EastMids Mini Coach — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:59:21 GMT

I cannot recommend the guys at Core Cambridge enough. They have worked with several of our players (youth and adult) and their results have been extraordinary.

It is a purpose built facility for injury rehab and athletic performance. Ed Hallam and his team should be congratulated on what they have achieved and how they go about things. Have a look at their website and you will see what I mean.

www.core-cambridge.co.uk

On the weight training front, lifting weights incorrectly is wrong for any age. I teach my boys (Under 10s) the weight lifting moves, focussing on form and balance just using a broom handle. We don't do very much and they enjoy the variety. We do quite a bit of body weight stuff, push ups, etc but we also introduce instability (hand on a ball) etc to work on their core strength. The new "Scrum Factory" CPD course covers a lot of these exercises and if we are putting kids into competitive scrums then I am damn well going to prepare their bodies to deal with it. This doesn't mean trying to turn them into a 12 year old Andrew Sheridan, just getting them into a condition that prevents them injuring themselves and allows them to enjoy this great game.

Roll on summer!

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EKW — Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:51:08 GMT

As rugby has come/is coming to an end for this season here, I thought I would remind coaches and players that this is the best time to get their strength and conditioning in order.

I hate gyms... with a vengeance... sorry guys!... but there are some great facilities out there and if anybody is looking for somewhere to start, somewhere you can be sure of getting the right information and development, this is the sort of place you should be looking for:

http://core-cambridge.com/2011/04/11/core-cambridge-2011-rugby-off-season-training-camp/

This particular camp is designed for 16+ and coaches but they can also design camps for younger players. If you cannot make this location, use it as a benchmark and look around in your area for something similar. The best thing about this kind of establishment is that they do not just take your money and say "See Ya!" at the end of the weekend, but they send you away with a 12 week programme to work on yourself/with the team; leading you up to the start of the next season nicely prep'ed and ready :D

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EKW — Sat, 09 Apr 2011 15:32:54 GMT

I am sorry to persist with this. I know there are many die hards out there who will not change, but for those interested in learning how to train functionally, I repeat, I am a rehabilitation trainer out of necesity, not choice.

Squats are an extremely important component to any training programme, which should also include front squats and overhead squats but to build your strength around squats, would only result in pulled/torn hamstrings. Squats are quad dominant and lead to imbalance if not put in their respective relevance.

For instance, before teaching a full snatch, we would teach the overhead squat as a transition exercise. It is vitally important to drop the hips slightly, allowing the body to present correctly underneath the bar; without this movement, which is omitted more often than not, it is mechanically incorrect and will increase the likelihood of injury as it puts additional strain on the back and shoulders... more so when the weights are challenging. Its purpose is to groove this movement into the CNS, whilst increasing flexibility, balance and shoulder stability. We need to ensure that the bar is not lifted with the arms but allowing the hips to do the work... power through explosion.

As above, prior to teaching the clean, we would teach the front squat as a transitional movement to prevent the exercise from becoming a reverse curl, whereby the hips and gluteals are no longer the prime movers as the back is used to gain momentum at the onset of the lift.

Bearing in mind the importance of squats, constant squatting will, of course, make your players stronger in the quads than players who do not perform squats. However, if you wish to maximise your players' potential in the scrummage, you will fail. If you want balanced strength around the quads, hamstrings and gluteals you will use Romanian dead lifts (RDLs), if you want strength in the scrummage, you will use the machine designed for the purpose.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

matty p — Thu, 07 Apr 2011 15:38:42 GMT

"the basic scrummaging position has many things in common with squats..."

D'accord, Didds. Back and leg strength, core strength, balance. Even the weight being on the upper back gives it some of the feeling of being packed down. My tip to any rugby player would be - build your strength training around squats (with all the usual disclaimers about technique, supervision, working up etc).

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EKW — Thu, 07 Apr 2011 14:06:27 GMT

The most important thing to remember about isolation exercises is that strength is only gained in that particular plane of motion, for example, doing bicep curls does not make your upper arm strong except for at the angle of the curl so, unless you carry your shopping bag in the same position, it does not make you stronger for that particular task.

When you squat, you should do so vertically, hopefully, in the scrummage the back is more horizontal. This uses other muscles, which are not engaged and therefore not strengthened, during the squat. The muscles which are strengthened, will only be stronger in that plane of motion i.e. up and down, not forwards. You will also find that length of contraction, concentric and eccentric, is different in the two activities. The scrummage machine is the mechanism for strengthening the muscles required in the plane of motion required for this activity.

As for the bench press, most shoulder issues [dislocations, RC tears, fractures etc] I deal with are caused by poor bench press technique. The biggest problem I have, is with the bench itself. It 'fixes' the back, inhibiting the correct muscles from working. If you do not have the correct technique before lying on the bench, there is no way you are going to get it afterwards... hence, if any of my clients fail to perform press ups with good form, they do not go near a bench. I should say here that I have had quite a steady stream of certified personal trainers consult me with this very issue themselves :).

There is no place in any sport for isolation exercises [well, possibly dance and some gymnastics], however, I know the young guys like to show off their beach muscles, so I tolerate them... in their own time, not mine.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

didds — Thu, 07 Apr 2011 12:48:30 GMT

[quote] when does a rugby player ever 'squat' or 'bench' in a game?[/quote]

the basic scrummaging position has many things in common with squats... but your point is nonetheless well made.

didds

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

EKW — Wed, 06 Apr 2011 12:22:45 GMT

Could not agree with you more nige1980!

A great post Jock312; would love to see any detailed results from the research.

I started this business as a coach and soon realised that S&C was a must so qualified as a Strength & Conditioning Practitioner. I had no problems training guys from U13s and, as I have said in another post, have well respected colleagues who will train from 10 years old.

However, the more I got around this business, the more I saw the abuse... hence the retraining as a soft tissue specialist and injury pathologist, which now takes up 100% of my time. Fortunately, none of my trainees have ever needed to lie on my couch :).

The problem is the quality of training and your experience Jock312 is fantastic; every consideration was put in place from both the physiological and psychological aspects. You ensured there was a professional support team on hand for all eventualities and strict periodic, specific testing was carried out. It's a no brainer, of course these guys are going to have a huge edge of others who do not have similar training.

However, it should also be a no brainer, that performed incorrectly, without such prodigious care does cause issues.

Red & Black Fan was also correct in his concerns regarding isolation training. Not only is this not functional, it is a waste of time with sport specificity in mind. Bodybuilding methods belong to body builders... weightlifting methods are the only way to go; training strength and power in movement, not muscles and muscle mass is never a substitute for using the muscles correctly.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

nige1980 — Wed, 06 Apr 2011 11:55:43 GMT

Have followed this trend with interest. As a research scientist at the sharp end I firmly come down on the side of weight training is safe for U16s, BUT only if the athletes are taught correct technique and the load they lift is carefully monitored to ensure that technique is maintained. The name of the game at U16 is to build slowly and steadily and focus on compound, posterior chain exercises coupled with general gymnastic movements. The introduction of unilateral movements can also be incorporated to improve proprioception.

The simple fact of the matter is that other elements of fitness for rugby, such as speed and agility cannot be improved sufficiently without a good strength base so that the athletes are able to control their own body weight perfectly.

I am convinced that a large number of ACL injuries could be prevented if correct technique is taught to younger athletes.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

jock312 — Wed, 06 Apr 2011 10:48:45 GMT

Some very good posts for and apparently against -

Over the last 15 years I have coached rugby full time in Thailand, the UK and then Singapore as a schools coach in Asia and both schools and club in the UK and we found that there were no proven facts for and against - with regard to the use of both strength training and weight training so we decided to test the facts and benefits of the both

Strength training - From age 13 we used both body weight and machine based activities - all supervised and diarised (allowed us to change the programs to suit the time of the year and the minimal and maximum programs) the machines were those we find in every public fitness facility.

average was - 2 sets 15 and 10 reps increasing by 1 plate (average) when changing down in reps. - 8 machines and exercise variations per session

At age 14 and after 12 months on the strength training we moved to a combination of Strength and weight training - and by weight training we mean free weights using bar , smith machine and dumbells (variations)

These programs were and still are coupled with SAQ programs to ensure that the players do have stability , joint strength and flexibility , speed training (running style training) and some plyometric activities

At age 14 the majority of the free weight work was done initially with the bar only ( and that includes the dumbells (or a 1 - 2 kg weight)
during this period players are taught shoulder injury recovery and rehab work - and it is used as a part of the actual training program (provides both joint strength and flexibility) The bar only activity is to ensure that they work in a controlled manner using perfect technique and perfect weights room etiquette (towels, spotters, replacement of weights etc)

At age 15 and with all of the above completed they are faster stronger and more resilient in a contact environment - and that was the aim - it was not size - bulking up nor was it to produce gym junkies

While the program was running they were and are still required to investigate all of the powders and assistance that are available to them , to weigh up the pro's and cons of the various legal additives and discuss them with their coaches and teachers before considering there use - to the point that some of them have written papers for the school on the legalities and side effects of there use. (not many use anything but Baby Milk powder and milk shakes made from that. (water, powder,bananas, sweet syrups, ice cubes before bed and after training)

Strength and weight training coupled with SAQ , some plyometrics, and swimming and recovery work , speed and running training all added to their skills training have produced 12 out of 15 wins in the national schools age group trophies (over 5 years) for their school and in excess of 40% of all national selection at age and now senior levels are from the one school

This program works in both Singapore and Thailand and now we have the opportunity to apply it back in australia so yes - strength and weight training are required in the game and provide benefits across the board, the average player was between 5 and 10kg heavier than his opponent from another school or club - and when they travelled to european countries they were no longer outweighed.

Note: We had with us an orthopedic surgeon who assisted in the checking of all students year by year , and he produced papers for the Medical Association in Singapore on the benefits and of the program and the reduction in injuries over the same period - it was a staggering 60% reduction across the board.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

slimadey — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 11:54:42 GMT

The horse riding is quite an interesting one. All the riders i have played with/coached have all be excellent line out jumpers, perhaps they're transferring their balance and rhythm, but they all have a good core strength and good leg/ankle muscles. Spending that much time in a stress position standing on supports the size of a marker pen must do something good.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the amount of time kids spend getting exersize whilst playing. I heard a story this week of two brothers sitting in sperate rooms, playing on sperate X-boxes, but playing against each other on line. Where are we going?

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

dale36 — Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:35:15 GMT

Red & Black Fan, some fair comments.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

Red & Black fan — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:15:46 GMT

I do like the fact that you guys train with your sons & have taken a level headed approach, even if the methodology differs- the end result is the same... young players being given a complete set of tools to 'have a go' with. Quite correctly pointed out that not all players will make it to the highest level, but imagine how much better the highest level will be (as well as the reduction in injuries) if we have well conditioned 'weekend warriors' playing recreational rugby!? Lets face it, rugby is not the kind of sport you can play 'socially' without a measure of conditioning (oh yes you can... i forgot about kiss catchers, i mean Touch rugby! ;) ) so standing on the side of Science & common sense, I think coaches who advocate strength training are on the right track, just important that the METHOD is safe, effective & ENHANCES rather than REDUCES in the long term...

I love the idea of cross training for youth (apart from the scientific basis: skill acquisition & transfer; energy system development; neural stimulation and development etc. it just makes SENSE!- remember all the trees, rivers, choppers, fences us old guys used to climb, swim, ride, jump etc that todays youth might be able to identify on a good day!?) Martial arts are great for discipline, mental & physical toughness in young players. I would also love to check out the transfer from horse riding to rugby... balance, rythm, courage, muscular endurance... NICE!

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

Red & Black fan — Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:52:41 GMT

[quote][b]dale36 (07/01/2010)[/b][hr]Hi all, first post for me.

I am a qualified weight lifting instructor as well as a rugby coach. I am now 41, and have been weightlifting since I was 15.

This is something that I feel very strongly about, and get peed off with when people say that you shouldn't train under the age of 16. Sorry if this sounds a bit strong as my first post, but to me, this is a dinosaurs point of view. Just look at the American High Schools and their Football players. They are years in front of us when it comes to this discipline.

The routine I gave them is outlined below, and is based around machines rather than free weights. This was looked at from a safety point of veiw. However, I am not opposed to free weights, as they help build core strength and stability.

2 DAY WEEK COMPLETE BODY ROUTINE

MONDAY & FRIDAY

LEG EXENSIONS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

LYING LEG CURLS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

WIDE LAT PULLDOWN 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

CHEST PRESS MACHINE 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

PREACHER MACHINE BICEP CURLS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

TRICEPS CABLE PRESS or BENCH DIPS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

SEATED CALF PRESS 3 SETS X 15 REPS

BENT KNEE ABDOMINAL CRUNCH 1 SET X 15 REPS

Sorry for the rant all, but this is something I believe any aspiring young player should be doing, if they want to get on.[/quote]

Couldnt agree more on getting young players started on Strength training- in my humble opinion, 'Strength' is the most disrespected aspect of Rugby coaching- we all chase after Skills, Speed, Agility, 'Explosiveness' but none of these components can be developed without strength...(a skillful player who is weak will not make it to the highest levels)

HOWEVER... ;) the program above concerns me as lots of the exercises are ' isolation' exercises (beach/ show muscles instead of functional/ go muscles!) Rugby players particularly need to be engaging in large muscle/ whole body strength training exercises e.g. strongman & olympic lifting & their derivatives (bearing in mind that we're not all qualified/ experienced in S & C) I had a long running 'discussion' (argument is probably a better description!) with a lovely man who was an international rugby team strength coach re: resistance training methodology- my argument was that testing rugby players' strength with traditional measures like Bench press & Squat 1RM for example is pointless- when does a rugby player ever 'squat' or 'bench' in a game? But rather finding like/ similar activities to measure would be more beneficial e.g High pull/ clean & jerk would be a good measure of strength in forwards as it is similar to the action required to lift a player in a lineout... vertical jump would be a good strength/ power measure for forwards who jump in lineouts etc... certainly made for interesting conversations over a few beers & barbecued meat!

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

dale36 — Sun, 24 Jan 2010 18:51:57 GMT

I have noticed that there is a lot of cameraderie with our U16s, on and off the pitch that has been nurtured through the game.

Only this week, I took my son to the gym and noticed other players from our team were there. Although they are weight lifting for their sport, it is also a social occasion for them, where they get together with their friends.

Although my son comes to the gym with me, he then goes off with one of his teamates for his training. I get on with mine, but can keep a quiet eye on them if they mess about.

Going back to one of my previous posts, we have had some players go through to regional level, and one of these definately would not have made it without some form of strength training. These clubs are looking for physical players, where a slightly smaller and more skilled player sometimes gets overlooked. But, these regional players are do not make the team.

Look Guys, not all of the players in our teams are going to make a living from playing rugby, and most will probably play local club rugby for fun as they get older. So, if some SENSIBLE weightlifting helps them out at grass roots level and keps them in the game then I'm all for it.

I think the key word here is "sensible", and it should also be fun for them.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

Ruckoff — Sat, 23 Jan 2010 13:07:41 GMT

No rage here, just a passion for dispelling common myths regarding weight training by giving factual information, my experience and anecdotal evidence,(as have dale36,chaSmash and Foz99) instead of just spouting weasel words.
I'm certainly not missing any point, I was originally only going to give what I have found to be the MOST effective way of strength training for any age but as usual people will give their unfounded opinions and perpetuate stupid myths surrounding this subject.

The upside to Strength training
Increased muscle mass and strength
Strengthened tendons and ligaments
Increased bone density
Increased metabolic rate
Reduced body fat
Reduced blood pressure
Improved posture
Reduced injuries
Improved psychological well-being

The downside to strength training
Takes hard work
Not as fun as Xbox

Enjoy your horse riding!:D

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

slimadey — Fri, 22 Jan 2010 14:16:44 GMT

Slow down Mr Ruckoff, you let your rage out again, to much time on the weights perhaps.

I think you missed the point there. When I said a martial arts class has more benefits is a better way of training, i used martial arts as an example, i also mentioned horse riding, rock climbing and swimming.

I was also speaking about the benefits as a whole, the competitive spirit, hand eye coordination, physical conditioning, social interaction with other type of athletes and off coarse, enjoying sport as away from rugby.

I did say that i'm not oppossed to weight training if done under the supervision of an experienced instructor, I just feel there's more enjoyment to be had away from the Gym.

I do think we're missing the main point here, we're talking about 13 and 14 year old players. Is it our job as coaches to make sure we have the strongest players around or to ensure our players are fit enough to play and enjoy the sport.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

Ruckoff — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:17:13 GMT

Martial arts are a big passion of mine (apart from rugby) and have trained for over 25 years in one form or another. However I completely disagree with your general statement - "Benefits of joining a martial arts class far out "weigh" two night a week in a gym" .- Which martial art, how many sessions? Take MMA, and in particular UFC fighters, do you think they just go to a few classes of martial arts a week or are they too involved in a training program which includes weight training?

I think a lot of people miss the point when it comes to training the body for sport - If you really want to maximise your potential in ANY sport then there are certain prerequisites needed - speed, agility, strength, coordination, power, flexibility and conditioning. Strength training will enhance all of these - YES all of them.

Not understanding these prereqs and how to achieve them, is why people will say 'the modern game is all about size instead skill ‘and 'Players are just gym monkeys', these people are misinformed and have not looked at the reasons for the gains in size.

The professional era has brought professional athletes. They are not bulking up to be bigger than the next player, they are trying to maximise their bodies’ potential and a by-product of that is muscular hypertrophy. But significantly they are after Myofibrillar hypertrophy NOT Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. Myofibrillar hypertrophy is commonly seen in elite strength athletes whereas sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is more typical in the bodybuilders of the world.

Weight training in the correct manner is second to none when preparing the body for any sport. The structure and progressive loading of a lifting program is specific and measurable and the gains are staggering (not in size) on the rugby field.

I think I should be clear on what I have found to be the correct way of weight training for rugby or any sport.

First of all, forget bodybuilding and training to get a 'beach body'.

Train your Fast twitch fibers, those used in explosive activities such as sprinting or power lifting. Weight training with heavy weights will develop these muscle fibers and potentially produce significant gains in muscle mass (think of the huge legs you see on world-class sprinters).

Train for strength, not endurance - training with heavy weights and low reps, NOT light weights and high reps.

Use compound exercises - Squat, Bench press, Overhead press, deadlift, power cleans.

Use free weights - Balance, Stability and coordination is increased significantly, training with machines will not give you this.

Be explosive when lifting.

If you want to be fast, explosive and powerful, then lifting heavy weight is the only way to go!

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

slimadey — Tue, 19 Jan 2010 11:18:50 GMT

I am not opposed to weight training in any way, but I think there are so many other ways of developing young players. The way I see it, some of the fittest players i know never do or have weight trained, but have taken up other sports through their lives such as Judo, Kickboxing, Rock climbing, horse riding, swimming. I think it's a much healthier way of training, adding a competitive element and working towards a target, than working out in a gym. And it's much more fun.

I read a brilliant article some years back (and when I find it I will post it) on the development of young players and how some things should never be left out of a training plan. The usual stamina, core strength and speed were highlighted in different ways, but in surprised me on how much Balance, Stability and coordination plays in the development of strength.

I people feel strongly, and have the correct knowledge to carry it out safely, to introduce weight training into a young players training plan, of coarse do so. But I believe the benefits of joining a martial arts class far out "weigh" two night a week in a gym.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

Ruckoff — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:00:29 GMT

@mykythesupercoach

Your are either stuck in a time warp or enjoy perpetuating myths that have no basis in fact whatsoever. How is it in the 1980s?:)

A lot of thought is now given to the development of player, which is why strength training is incorporated in to a rugby training program, including over-training.

American sport system - They don’t peak at college level, there is just nowhere to play if they don’t make it to professional level, where is the evidence that ‘alot’ are forced to retire through injury? What injury, from strength training?

Please DO bore me with cons of weight training an U16.

Epiphyseal plate (growth plate) fractures may be the key concern in this controversy. Damage to these plates induced by weight training is frequently cited as a reason for avoiding weight training in children. The existing medical and scientific data do not support this as a valid contraindication. One instance of epiphyseal fracture attributed to weightlifting has been reported in preadolescents (Gumbs, 1982). In pubescent athletes, five publications have reported instances of fractures related to weight training (Benton, 1983; Brady, 1982; Gumbs, 1982; Rowe, 1979; Ryan, 1976). The overwhelming majority of these injuries were attributed to improper technique in the execution of the exercises and excessive loading. Each report failed to consider that the injury may actually have occurred as a result of contact with the floor or other object subsequent to loss of balance and falling, and not be attributable to the actual weight training movement. Further, proper diagnosis and treatment of this rare injury resulted in no detrimental effect on growth (Caine, 1990).

It has also been noted that weight training does not interfere with growth by other means (Ramsey, 1990; Sailors, 1987; Seigel, 1989; Weltman, 1986). Research reviewed by Theintz (1994) seems to suggest that sport training for less than 15 hours per week was not disruptive to hormonal status, growth or puberty.

Training programs in which training loads are prescribed and monitored and in which training activities are supervised have proven to be remarkably safe in terms of the frequency of injury occurrence. Several studies have followed the rate of injury during training programs of several weeks to a year in duration (Pierce, 2000; Ramsay, 1990; Rians, 1987; Servidio, 1985; Sewall, 1986). Rians’ 14-week long study (1987) reported only one minor shoulder strain which resolved itself by the end of the study. One study of importance to the competitive weightlifting community, or any other group using higher percentages of maximum, is the one-year study of a USA Weightlifting Regional Development Center program that included more than 70 pediatric athletes in which no reports of injury were noted (Pierce, 1999). The bottom line is that it seems to be the level of supervision, not the practice of weight training that is problematic. Qualified coaches need to be in the weight room any time a youth is training.

The key is to develop their overall athletic ability by developing all the elements required for success in any sport: speed, agility, strength, coordination, power, flexibility and conditioning.

Strength training is just 1 element and I WOULD recommend it at any age as long as the player is mature enough to follow instructions.

The RFU (Who do prescribe to the LTAD) also has recommendations on Strength Training for Young Rugby Players - www.rfu.com/TakingPart/Fitness/~/media/Files/2009/Fitness/071203%20sw%20RFU%20position%20statement%20-%20strength%20training%20for%20young%20players.ashx

I have now been training\coaching my son in all things rugby for 6 years. Since the age of 9 he has been a skilful player but it was at the point when he was not selected for the County system at 12 years old that we began to look at developing his overall athletic ability. The next year we worked speed, agility, strength, coordination, power, flexibility and conditioning. At the county trial the following year he was selected because he was a stronger, quicker and more powerful athlete.

He is now 15 years old and is currently in the Elite player development group (EPDG) and working very hard (but not over-training:)) to realise his dream of becoming a professional rugby player. He would not be in this position today if he had not integrated strength training to his program.

You don't have to do strength training to play rugby, it is your choice, but if you choose to then it is not dangerous for the Under 16s.

I have supervised everyone of his strength training sessions and he has NEVER been injured. He has however in the 6 years playing RUGBY broken his wrist, collar bone, metatarsal and torn an AC joint. So, maybe U16s should not play rugby at all in case they get injured.;)

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

mykythesupercoach — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:15:39 GMT

oh and there clearly is documented evidence that on the weight plate front.... because you have all heard about it is just rare that it happens now because you don't see u16s undertaking serious weightlifting.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

mykythesupercoach — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:56:03 GMT

actually i am going to break form here... i would never recommend weight training for any one under 16. whilst it is rare that growth plates get compressed during a weight lift regime. the body can cope with weight training in moderation.

while the body can cope, you have to consider the implications of telling a 14/15 year old that he is too weak to cope without doing weights.you should also not assume that because one player may be able to cope psychologically with the pressure that the same applies for everyone on the team.

not much thought is given to the complete development of a player these days. concentrating on strength is what is wrong with the modern game. gone are the days where pace and skill meant more than strength. injuries are becoming more and more commonplace in rugby and this has been attributed to the increasing strength of players.

another factor to consider is over-training. i am sure you all understand and agree that players need rest. if your team meets twice a week for rugby and you do gym based sessions, you will need to do the gym session instead of your rugby session for the rest of the season. meaning you only get one rugby session a week. this ultimately means your likely to lose out on skill and pace.

weight training sessions have to be constant and frequent to have any chance of increasing and maintaining that strength.

another important factor in the reason gyms don't allow under 16s in gyms even supervised is the lack of insurance. i assume you have a club gym which would be covered by the RU insurance. this would not cover gym sessions for your under 15s and you could be in for some serious trouble if an accident or injury. which is more likely with children playing with weights and a low attention/ concentration levels

i realise this is essay length but i fear for the sport if we place pressures on what are ultimately children to be strong we could lead to them peaking far to early. there are mentions of the american system of sport in this discussion saying it is a success but what is not mentioned is the fact that the American sport system peaks at college levels for the vast majority of their players (late teens early twenties) and alot of them are forced to retire through injury. don't forget they also wear vasts amount of protection in comparison to rugby players.

there are more reasons that go in the cons section of weight training an u16 that i dont wish to bore you with but i am happy to if requested.

my recommendation is you stick to body weight exercises like pull ups and press ups until the 16+ age group...there is a long term athlete development model for a reason you know

thanks

Michael
bsc hons sport and exercise

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

dale36 — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 23:29:23 GMT

Ref:FOZ99

Good post mate, and I can see where you are coming from.

I like the way the routine is designed, mainly around compound movements, but I still encourage the lads to go with complete body and initially start off with machine weights. These are Hammer Strength, so it does give a reasonably natural flow to any movement.

My reasoning behind this, is that I know I they are going to be in the gym at times when I cannot supervise them. Even though the gym owner is very vigilant, she still has other customers to look after as well. However, the lads are moving on to free weights now and are confident in using them. The initial introduction though is based around safety, although I take on board your comment about the machines restricted movement.

I also added some isolation movements into the routine as well to keep the lads interested. Boys being boys are still interested in the vanity muscles, and I don't think this will ever change. I know I was exactly the same at their age. Yes, the smaller muscles will be utilised in the compound lift, but try telling a teenage boy that he can't do bicep curls. He will still do them behind your back.

Good post though FOZ, even though we are using slightly differnt routines. I am glad we can agree that strength training should be part of a young players training schedule.

On a side note, we have a regional and international player in our gym who is an absolute machine when it comes to training in the gym. I have discussed his training with him as he does a lot of core work and we swap ideas now and again.

He introduced me to single arm bench dumbell bench presses, which I saw him do with 110ib dumbells. This builds up the chest and core pretty quick, and he says he was advised to do this to help retain the ball in contact while handing/driving off with the free arm.

It's funny though when he leaves the gym, as some guys are itching to have a go at this exercise. Saw one guy fall off the bench sideways doing this. He wasn't hurt, and did laugh about it afterwards... Along with the rest of us.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

Ross — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 12:13:17 GMT

I have found probably the best source of information for coaches the world round... it's called boksmart a south african initiative that aims to educate coaches. The adress is www.boksmart.co.za on here coaches can find a comprehensive guide to rugby conditioning, recovery, nutrition, safety, rehabilitation ect ect. It really is invaluable. The programmes and guides has been compiled by some of the best experts in their fields in south africa including shelley meltzer who is in charge of the springboks eating. Well worth the read if you are serious about learning more for your players. The youth programmes are very good and go right the way up from u13 to senior level, so players are well looked after for their entire youth rugby years.
Give it a try as it has helped me immensely

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

foz99 — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 22:03:22 GMT

Hi,

It is good to see that many coaches have now come around to weight training as valuable tool to improve youth fitness. This is my opinion on the subject which is backed up by the International Youth Conditioning Association and the work of many youth fitness specialists:

1) Weight Training is not dangerous and in fact can stimulate bone growth from the muscle pull on the bones during resistance exercises (growth plate damage was reported in one small scale study in the 80's and was a result of maximum lifting).

2) Weight training does not reduce mobility but in increases it as long as the athlete performs through a full range of motion (even the most muscle bound power lifters need to have excellent mobility to perform Olympic lifts).

3) DO NOT USE MACHINES as these can affect the athletes mobility and muscular development. Machines force the athlete to move through a predetermined path and won't enable them to move through their own full range of motion (every persons range is different) and could put extra pressure on joints. Also, the vital synergist and stabiliser muscles that assist the prime movers in performing the exercises are not needed when using machines as it is the machine that supports the weight for you. This in no way reflects the way that muscles are used during rugby. Furthermore, by using free weights you can have a big impact on improving the athletes coordination through learning a variety of exercises and concentration throught he fact that there is a massive consequence if they do not think about what they are doing (I ahve found that teenagers are so into lifting that they never switch off and so safety is never compromised).

4) Most people think that performing high reps with a low weight is the way forward youth beginners in order to prevent injury. If 15 reps X 3 sets are performed, that gives the athlete 45 times to get it wrong.This can imprint bad form on the athlete which will be hard to reverse. Lifting is a skill and so should be taught as one. Learning body position, firing patterns and specific movements are essential to children.

In the first couple of months of lifting (at least), the athlete needs to be taught a variety of exercises with moderate weight so that perfect form becomes automatic. By getting the athlete to perform a maximum of 5 reps this gives the coach many more opportunities to give individual feedback. Multiple sets (5 plus) gives the athlete the opportunity to correct mistakes.

5) When designing a programme you should do so by including an equal mix of the 6 functional human movements- squat, lunge, bend, push, pull and twist. When the athlete is proficient in a variety of these exercises, they can then perform combination or hybrid exercises which make lifting even more functional to rugby.

6) Body weight exercises are an excellent precursor to weight training. However, it wouldnt stop me from having an athlete perform the bench press if they couldnt perform 10 press ups because as stated earlier, if moderate weight is used, bench press can be easier. I would ensure that they could perform a body weight squat and lunge before adding weight and use a system of graduation whereby they would need to show me perfect form before they graduate to using weight and thereafter every increase in rep range or weight would be based on this graduation system. As I stated earlier, I find that teenages respond really well to weight training as it gives them a level of focus that is much higher than if they were to do a body weight circuit. I tend to use the body weight exercises in the warm up to recap technique and activate the core muscles.

7) Example session (Athletes have 2/3 sessions experience):

Warm up - Dynamic Flex plus spiderman crawls, hip mobility ex, plank, squat, lunge

1. Front Squat 5repsx5sets

2. Shoulder Press 5x5

3. Step Ups 5x5

4. Bent over row 5x5

5. RDL 5x5

6. Reverse Crunch (body weight) 5x5

By manipulating the rest periods between sets and/or exercises and exercise order, you can make this quite a demanding workout even with moderate weight. Once the technique has been perfected you can then increase the rep range to a max of 15.

Hope this has been of some use for you. let me know what you think. I advise that you look into buying the Complete Athlete Development Manual by Brian Grasso as this not only approaches the subject of strength training but also explains how to develop all biomotor skills (strength, speed, stamina, suppleness and coordination) within a series of training session. There is also a very valuable chapter on deceleration.

Cheers,

Stuart (PE Teacher, IYCA Level 1 and U14 Rugby Coach)

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

chaSmash — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 12:44:38 GMT

Totally agree with dale36, plan looks top notch too!!

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

dale36 — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 19:37:09 GMT

Hi all, first post for me.

I am a qualified weight lifting instructor as well as a rugby coach. I am now 41, and have been weightlifting since I was 15.

2 years ago, I was coaching U14s, and we started lifting in the lineout. Pre season the lads couldn't lift to full height, and were struggling to get past the first (clean) stage at shoulder height. I gave our lifters bodyweight exercises to do in training and concentrated hard on their lifting technique using real time jumpers. By the start of the season, our team was lifting to full height, while other teams were only getting to shoulder height.

4 of our players made it to district level the following season at U15s, where I assisted as a father coach. When the boys went to Region camp, they were told not to weight train, and even not to take protein supps by the Wales Womens coach. I argued strongly but friendly against this with 3 other district coaches, who all said they should not be weight lifting.

By this time I had introduced most of our team to the gym, by doing a complete body workout twice a week, using selectorised weight machines only. No free weights. Each individual was instructed on their first 2 sessions by myself, and were then monitored by the gym owner after that.

All of the other district coaches were from seperate clubs in our region. Guess what happened when we played each other during the U15 season. Our scrums were much stronger than any other side, and our lineouts were much cleaner and higher than theirs.

All of a sudden the questions started coming about what our players were doing weights wise. :D

3 of the players have now gone on to region level at U16, and 1 of those definately would not have made it without weightlifting. If I am truthful, he is now probably the better player of the 3, but is really dedicated to his sport.

2 DAY WEEK COMPLETE BODY ROUTINE

MONDAY & FRIDAY

LEG EXENSIONS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

LYING LEG CURLS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

WIDE LAT PULLDOWN 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

CHEST PRESS MACHINE 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

PREACHER MACHINE BICEP CURLS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

TRICEPS CABLE PRESS or BENCH DIPS 3 SETS X 15-12-10 REPS

SEATED CALF PRESS 3 SETS X 15 REPS

BENT KNEE ABDOMINAL CRUNCH 1 SET X 15 REPS

THE FIRST SET OF EACH EXERCISE IS PERFORMED WITH A LIGHT WEIGHT TO WARM THE MUSCLE GROUP UP. THE WEIGHT IS THEN INCREASED FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SET. IF THE MINIMUM NUMBER OF REPS CANNOT BE ACHIEVED, THEN THE WEIGHT IS TOO HEAVY. IF THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF REPS IS BEING EXCEEDED, THEN THE WEIGHT IS TOO LIGHT.

FOLLOW THE ORDER OF THE EXERCISES, AS THE BIG MUSCLE GROUPS ARE WORKED FIRST, LEADING ON TO THE SMALLER MUSCLE GROUPS AT THE END. THESE DO NOT REQUIRE AS MUCH OXYGEN, AS ENERGY LEVELS DROP DURING THE WORKOUT.

TUESDAY & THURSDAY – CLUB TRAINING. NO WEIGHT TRAINING SHOULD BE DONE ON THESE DAYS.

WEDNESDAY – RECOVERY DAY

SATURDAY – EAT WELL. TODAY IS A REST PERIOD, TO ALLOW FOR FULL RECOVERY FOR A MATCH ON SUNDAY.

Sorry for the rant all, but this is something I believe any aspiring young player should be doing, if they want to get on.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

dmsmiley — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 16:18:42 GMT

Firstly, weight training for this age group is save providing good technique is always observed and safety is priority.
The best exercises at this age would be body weight, med-balls, broom handles etc.
It would also be advisable to get a qualified person to functionally screen each player, you will then know where the players are tight/weak and individual exercises can be prescribed.

I wouldn't rush into weights exercises just yet, experience has thought me that players this age are very inflexible and lack a lot of fundamental movement skills.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

chaSmash — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 12:06:35 GMT

As an elite junior rower back in the day, the coach had us on weights at u15s upwards with no problems - i think supervised properly and done safely there is no problem and actually resistance work at this age hits the muscles just as they are at an accelerated stage of their development and can have multiple times the benefits of the same relative exercises as an adult.

Our plans were always based around the large muscle groups. (there is no place at this stage for beach weights, small muscles biceps etc will be used as part of the big muscle exercises) - that is the legs, back and chest. I would also add in core exercises as well.

good ones to go for are

Seated squats against a wall - hold for 60 second - made more difficult by having the player do alternate dumbbell shoulder presses with a LIGHT weight (increase time and weight for progression)

Standard squats with empty olympic bar - using the bar increases core strength as opposed to gym machine as it is a natural movement. Encourage good straight back technique here!! (increase weight for progression)

Powercleans with empty olympic bar - builds plyometric and core strength and uses the big muscle groups in a coordinated manner, aim for explosive leg drive - use large wooded disks on the bar to raise it from the ground for easier lifting without adding weight

benchpulls - lie face down on bench and lift weight from below - this increases upper back strength without putting pressure on the lower back like a seated row would do - can do this one either as standard sets & reps or as a timed exercise at a low weight (eg 30 reps per minute for 5 minutes)

Dumbbell bench press - using the dumbbells encourages equal strength on both sides, making a more balance player - encourage extra reps on the weaker side to create equality

Additionally, as a previous poster pointed out - press-ups, pull-ups and sit-ups are excellent strength exercises (at any age!!)

As for amount of weight, it is worth doing a session determining the 3 rep maximum for your players. This session is actually one of the more fun ones for players as it really brings out the competitive nature and gives them a target to break. Reassess this every 4-6 weeks.

to build strength 80% max for 6-8 reps maximum x 3, for endurance 50% for 15-20 reps x 3. try doing a circuit with some aerobic exercises interspersed bike, rowing machine etc

With all of these exercises, safety is key. stop anyone not exhibiting the correct techniques from lifting anything with any resistance at all until they can do correctly

I feel i have to point out that i am a qualified rowing coach and have only switched back to rugby in the last few years but the principles of strength training are the same

Hope this helps - it worked for me, turning me into the man mountain i am today!!:cool:

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

thepeb — Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:34:56 GMT

Thanks for the replies. Yes previously I was always told that weight training should only be for 16+. However at the school where most of the boys go the PE/Rugby coaches have got the boys using weights. First I thought that it was wrong and was going to complain but then I read further into it and as long as the exercises are done with good form and not to 'max out' then it is good for development.

I am still looking for someone to give a good programme for summer weight/strength training though?

cheers

thepeb

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

cjp — Thu, 09 Apr 2009 20:20:50 GMT

Interestingly, so far as I am aware (have read) there are no recorded cases of damage to growth plates or affects on skeletal growth being caused to young people by weight training itself. Injuries can be caused by incorrect technique or attempts to lift excessive weight but correctly supervised weight training is safe (Strength and Conditioning Journal 18: 62-75 1996 and vol 26(3) 16-21, 2004). It is done lots in the US with young athletes in many sports. It is also worth noting that most of the weights lifted in a correctly designed and supervised programme will be less than body weight in any event. To put it another way many sessions one might put together using body weight and/or other players body weight, will put more load on the body than a weights session. Any weights session or programme of sessions (for any age group) should of course be designed, supervised and monitored by properly qualified coaches.

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

didds — Wed, 08 Apr 2009 10:21:44 GMT

I ws under the same belief as Tobbe until recently when somebody pointed me to this

http://www.community-rugby.com/communityrugby/index.cfm/fuseaction/Home.Download_Counter/downloadId/3166/filename/RFU%20position%20statement%20-%20strength%20training%20for%20young%20players.pdf

this may be easier :-)

http://tinyurl.com/c5d88r

I would say however that the paper does seem to focus more on the more elite end of youth players who may (almost by definition?) have better muscle tone and skeletal development than many of their less able peers. Clearly sense and individual appraisal is still required before setting out any weight program for youths, if not anybody.

cheers

didds

RE: Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

Tobbe — Sat, 04 Apr 2009 17:52:34 GMT

I have always been told that that the minimum age for using weights / visiting gyms is 16.
Until then they should only use the weight of their own body (press-ups, sit-ups etc).

Strength/Weight Training Under 15s

thepeb — Fri, 03 Apr 2009 15:48:56 GMT

Can someone give me good GYM workouts for our Under 15s over the summer (they are under 14s now). The sessions will be supervised and players will be educated on technique/form etc.