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RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jonesy — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:40:53 GMT

Rewind to post 1 - reaction to the dropped pass, knock on etc. in a game related manner would be more appropriate - consequently the reaction becomes second nature and instinctive. In a game a dropped pass would not result in the offending team running back to the tryline. We shoulkd try to get our players to react positively to all occurences etc.

Jonesy

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

didds — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:25:38 GMT

[quote]I progressed this to having the whole team sprint back to their tryline before being allowed back in the game, which was added pressure.
[/quote]

this is the sort of concept that I like - one question though... Do you perceive that once the team was giving up huge amounts of ground for a dropped pass that the players stopped taking any 50/50 type risks, and played only "safe" rugby? Just interested :-)

didds

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

denrgj1 — Sun, 31 May 2009 22:59:02 GMT

[quote][b]geordie (25/05/2009)[/b][hr]I am coaching Junior Rugby League, I know this is a Rugby Union Discussion site so I hope you don't mind me joining in, I think this topic is similar for both codes of the game.

I have worked with my side from under 9s and they are currently under 15s, at younger age groups we didn't use any kind of sanctions but used positive reinforcement. We stop the drill ask questions to assertain their understanding of what they are doing, give them some pointers and then send them back out to have another go.

Last season we introduced a scale of different exercises dependent on how many balls they dropped in a drill. If you knock a ball on you then have to defend which is much harder work than attacking so all of the different exercises where defence related.

Our ball retention last year went through the roof and it reinforced the principle of taking the correct option at the correct time, also defensively we improved due to all the defencive work that we did and the different drills that we used.

The older age groups are able to concentrate for longer so as coaches we should push them to concentrate, when it breaks down make them do a drill that is still game related but much harder than what they where doing and concentration will improve.[/quote]

I agree. I think it comes down to drills Vs the game sense approach. Whenever I did drills in the past, I had problems with lack of concentration, dropped balls, missed tackles, poor passes etc. etc. I then changed the intense handling part of the session to games sense i.e. rugby netball, endball etc. the concentration levels rose, fewer poor passes and dropped balls and most importantly the lads ENJOYED it. Any 'punishment' was game related i.e turnover for dropped balls, and I progressed this to having the whole team sprint back to their tryline before being allowed back in the game, which was added pressure.

I think if we take the view that there is always a reason why players perform poorly in a training session, then the most important question is Why?

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

denrgj1 — Sun, 31 May 2009 22:14:56 GMT

[quote][b]Jonesy (02/02/2009)[/b][hr]I would be interested to hear other coaches views regarding the use of punishment e.g. press ups, sit ups etc when poor form has been shown in training sessions. I ask in particular with regard to Under 19's rugby and younger.

Personally I do not find any merit in this practice. I would rather encourage and reinforce good practice.

Jonesy[/quote]

I don't think any situation arises where any player, be they youth or senior - warrants being 'punished' with extra physical activity, rugby is a hard enough game as it is.

If a player or players show poor performance, there could be any number of reasons for this. If there is an issue of a drop in confidence, then being punished will only serve to push the confidence lower and cause more of an issue with poor performance. In addition, I've seen so many occasions where players have been punished for poor performance, where the players have ended up treating the coach with contempt.

I actually believe that punishment of poor performance actually shows a lack of coaching knowledge and ability. Much more beneficial for both the coach and player is 1 on 1 chats involving skill analysis, grouping poor performers together to discuss key points and where they think they're going wrong, what they need to do to put it right, and how we're going to measure it over the next few weeks.

Physical exercise has its place within a strength and conditioning programme, not as a punishment for poor performance.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

DanC — Tue, 26 May 2009 10:08:42 GMT

I like what Geordie says here.

We cannot let mistakes go unrecognised. There must be "pressure" to perform.

It is how we apply that pressure that will lead to deeper learning experiences. A harder game-related "punishment" is actually game like as it is. Think about taking the wrong option the game and then having to defend for five minutes!

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

geordie — Mon, 25 May 2009 19:37:40 GMT

I am coaching Junior Rugby League, I know this is a Rugby Union Discussion site so I hope you don't mind me joining in, I think this topic is similar for both codes of the game.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

aNMcoach — Thu, 07 May 2009 20:58:13 GMT

[quote][b]Jenks (04/02/2009)[/b][hr]Very true........... but depending on their mood they also drop the ball deliberately because they enjoy the wrestling (which can be linked to game situations) and it's fun particularly in the mud...... they also challenge us to see how long it will take before they wrestle. We both (kids and coaches) benefit from it........ except I always end up on the loosing end when it's my turn wrestling the ex-FR coach......

It's always difficult to explain, sometimes as they say you need to be there.[/quote]

true --that

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

muirso — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:12:42 GMT

As a means of focusing the attention of teenagers who are mucking about it is effective when used as a short shock to refocus their attention. Mistakes are not punished at our practices, we use the philosophy mistakes happen thats how we grow. We stop, reassert what is the correct behaviour and move on. if the same mistakes occur again and again, we break it down to basics and build from the foundations up. U19's are at an age where they think they know it all, but sometimes a team huddle and pointing out the obvious works better. They need a sense of collective responsibility and their input needs to be valued. Guidance is better than punishment!!!!

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

joshuaryoung — Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:10:11 GMT

Its up to us, the coaches, to determine why are players are making mistakes and choose the appropriate course of actions. If my boys are wandering and "taking the day off," then extra laps may be in order.

If boys are dropping balls, but working hard, well then, forget about it and move onto the next pass. Rugby is a game of mistakes and the last thing I want is for my players to dwell on them. React and attack on a drop ball / turnover.

I had a boy, who at the beginning of the season couldn't catch a ball to save his life. He, the team, and I knew it. He had a mental roadblock. I could have exercised him to death, instead, I sent him home with a ball. Here we are, two months later, and the kids hands have improved 100%.

The correct action must fit the mistake and lead to player improvement.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Red & Black fan — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:35:56 GMT

I agree 100% with you Jonesy- creating a positive environment is crucial to the big picture of coaching, particularly coaching youth, BUT...;) my understanding of this discussion was that we were talking about the training environment and I have yet to come across the silver bullet that allows me to simulate the range of emotions associated with losing during/ after a bad training session (bad in the sense of poor skills/ lack of effort/ concerntration based on my knowledge of the players and their age & ability level) I am also loathe to use exercise as punishment (look at youth obesity levels & sedentarism in the developed world for starters) but if you manage your players' conditioning load in such a way that the sanctions are seen as part of training, it can work really well.

I am also pretty certain that SCW, Martin Johnson et al did not shrug off poor skill execution in training with a simple 'bad luck old chap, try harder next time!'... In my humble opinion, there has to be consequence- the difference between a coach and very good one lies in the ability to empower the players to fix the mistakes and learn/ improve skill execution, while accepting the consequences of their errors and seeing the process in the context of the big picture. Obviously age & ability level play a role in the manner and level of sanctions applied- for example, I have experienced U16 schoolboys coming up with suggestions for sanctions on the training ground, which we applied as a team and enjoyed a measure of success (they won more games that season than in their U12/13/14/15 season combined!)

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jonesy — Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:20:44 GMT

Red & Black fan - there are always consequences to poor performance wiith regard to the game of Rugby Union i.e. loosing. Surely isn't that punishment enough. When you drop a ball or drop a pass during a game the consequence is not 5, 10 or 15 press ups - it could be 3, 5 or seven points.

And to that end that is why I believe al coaching sessions should have positive outcomes, a dropped ball should not result in sit ups or press ups - for example - a defensive ruck arrangement would be a more realistic game related result. This would reinforce the T-Cup principle endoresd by Sir Clive Woodward. (His book entitled "Winning" is a must read for any coach).

Jonesy

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Red & Black fan — Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:05:32 GMT

One of the biggest problems in the world today is the lack of consequences and taking responsibility for our actions & the results of our actions. I cant believe that COACHES are debating the merits of 'punishment' for poor training! While there are some semantic subtleties in the above posts which show diversity (which is GOOD!) what worries me is that so many of us are so caught up in not being 'negative' & protecting our players that we're abdicating our responsibility to teach them:

1 that sport (Rugby in our case) like life, has consequences good & bad

2 that the way they handle consequences good and bad has a bearing on their development

I'd love to see more coaches out there taking responsibility for their players' wellbeing and development with an holistic approach. We all need to 'coach with consequence'- the old classic 'practice doesnt make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect' comes to mind- players will not develop/ improve if there are no consequences for poor skill execution. the HOW is to an extent dependent on the age of the players we are responsible for, but ultimately, as coaches we should be able to differentiate between lack of effort/ concerntration in applying skills Vs lack of ability/ fatigue induced errors. We should also be able to justify fitness forfeits/ punishments for poor effort/ concerntration in the larger context of the training environment. Again, the level that you coach will be the indicator for what you do. Some practical examples for inexperienced coaches:

Beginners at ALL levels & U7-U9 rugby: 10 Dropped balls in a specific training block= 3-5 push ups/ sit ups

Intermediate players U10-U15 rugby: 5 dropped balls in a specific training block = 10 push ups/ sit ups/ half field sprint

Advanced players U16-U21 rugby: 3-5 dropped balls in a specific training block = 10-15 push ups/ sit ups/ full field sprint

Again, as coaches we should know our players & their physical, technical ability as well as their group developmental stage (beginners, intermediates, mixed etc) appropriate progressions (periodisation & time of season) so each model will differ slightly, but PLEASE, lets COACH WITH CONSEQUENCE!

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Rainier — Mon, 23 Feb 2009 11:29:13 GMT

That bit about being a sport shrink is very applicable when applied to younger players. Last year I coached seniors and this year I moved to /21's and it is obvious that a lighter hand is needed with the youngsters.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jonesy — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:14:29 GMT

I have been coaching junior rugby from Under 9's to Under 19's for the last 12 years and have tried various coaching methods and approaches. Some work and some don't, many are as Jenks states dependant upon age,ability, individual players and their needs.

Currently I try hard not to create a negative environment but one of positive encouragement and feedback. When things go wrong I remind them of times when they performed the task correctly during games and in training sessions thus getting them to try and remember and visualise those moments.

Thank you all for your contributions, it has proven that coaches also have to be sports psychologists!!!!

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jenks — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:32:00 GMT

Based on your responses I've been analysing why we do things previously described. In a game there are rewards for getting things right (winning) and consequences for getting things wrong (loosing). Of course sometimes you can play to the best of your abilities as individuals and as a team and still loose but even here there is satisfaction of achievement in the performance. Individuals within the team have different needs and their needs maybe for positive encouragement and others need positive criticism but there are always consequences for an action or decision whether they be good or bad (not so good). During a match the challenge is to perform which will hopefully result in a W. In training should we not be replicating the same? So an excercise/"punishment" can be the consequence in the same way a try being scored against us. Sometimes it doesn't feel so good. If we challenge our players to get things right and they understand the consequences of not it is not a punishment.

The wrestling is just for fun to release the intensity afterall my lot are only 13.

Our challenge as coaches is just to vary and stimulate when practicising the basics. This will hopefully develop sound core skills and technique and thus develop the player.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jonesy — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:59:03 GMT

Tooky!

How do you reward good technique/performance? Verbal praise?

Jonesy

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jenks — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:59:01 GMT

Posted before moving to page 2....... I coach U13's. I would add that we do have different approaches depending on the activity and whether it is team or individual, I include "pods" FR, BR, back 3 as individuals within their specific drills. For this we do use positive encouragement and self-analysis where we try and let the players come up with the solution themselves and don't criticise ie. where would it be good to use this type of move/sequence, if you were here what would you want to do/achieve. At a recent game we arrived to find we were playing on a 3/4 size pitch which was narrow for our type of game. We asked what they would do differently in the game to create space and move the defense out of position and they came up with their own solutions, we as coaches just then reminded them of what they had come up with for the duration of the match.

I think it's horses for courses and having different approaches for different situations. A different post but didn't want you guys thinking we just beast the boys...... i hated that myself as a player but we do want it to be fun.......

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

tooky — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:47:25 GMT

I'm not sure I'd call it punishment, but we do use pressups as a way to measure our success in certain practices. I'm coaching u14s.

For example in a handling grid we will often work up to a golden minute, during that minute mistakes are counted and at the end of the minute the mistakes are totted up and converted to pressups. Usually five per mistake. So 3 drops, 15 pressups - but we do them as a team, coaches as well.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jenks — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:34:11 GMT

Agree great topic and as usual learning lot's that will develop me and subsequently the players.......

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jonesy — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 08:06:46 GMT

Ok. There are differing views and examples. So lets move this topic forward. In Jenks' model he states that the use of punishment and forfeits as fun - at what age group does he coach?

To that end maybe we can discuss at what age do punsihments/forfeits loose their fun effect and may have a detrimental psychological effect on the actual skills etc being coached?

Jonesy

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

dobbin — Thu, 05 Feb 2009 08:00:14 GMT

We often do drop and join them, for team spirit.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Nieghorn — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:56:27 GMT

Great topic.

I've never been one who though 'punishments' were a good motivator for improved performance. As a teenager, my club coach used this method and I was always a bit hesitant to be intense and risky when about to receive/receiving/with ball for fear of dropping and the harsh penalty. I've never used them, and just let things go with words telling them to focus, be ready, look, communicate, etc.

But I was shocked one year when a group of women I was coaching actually DEMANDED to have them. I asked the full team, not all together so as to avoid peer pressure from the demanding group, what their opinions were on this and enough didn't want it, so I didn't cave to the requests.

What this topic can be expanded to is how different players motivate themselves and how we can help this. In the above situation, I again let the odd drop go always encouraging and giving constructive feedback, but what I found helped was when the errors became more frequent, everyone benefited from a 'refocusing timeout' of sorts. When several occur, I stop the drill, bring everyone into a huddle and have them just relax for a few seconds, ask them to breathe, clear their minds, etc. Then we have a quick chat about what's going wrong, no accusations allowed, using indirect assessments on the technique/skill or saying 'we need to...' If they don't know what's wrong, then I lead them toward the answer with questions that get them to realise the issue(s).

More often than not, they go right back into the drill and dramatically improve performance. Now this is a strategy that I've found works with women, and occasionally with young men, but I still know there are a large number of boys/men, and a few women, who prefer to the 'tough love' approach. Early on, I try and get a feel for each player's mental strength and how they are best motivated (while not always obvious through conversation, I hand out a pre-season questionnaire with a lot of vital info, but also how one is best motivated, their goals, etc.). For me, players seem to either want a 'hug' or a 'kick up the arse' - one of my best ever fly halves only responded to empathetic positive encouragement, and even a harsh tone would crush his spirit; but a hard-nosed no. 8 wouldn't respond to anything but a strong tone and demand to do 'x, y, z' that, for him, fired him into action.

While I still won't use team punishments to get results, I will occasionally throw out a strongly delivered constructive declaration to fire some up, while offering my typical soft-spoken positive encouragement and specific instruction to the rest.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jenks — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:07:27 GMT

Very true........... but depending on their mood they also drop the ball deliberately because they enjoy the wrestling (which can be linked to game situations) and it's fun particularly in the mud...... they also challenge us to see how long it will take before they wrestle. We both (kids and coaches) benefit from it........ except I always end up on the loosing end when it's my turn wrestling the ex-FR coach......

It's always difficult to explain, sometimes as they say you need to be there.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jonesy — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:13:09 GMT

Many of your answers are very interesting, however punishment or forfeits can be seen as a negative and as a result can have a un-motivating effect. As a coach especially at youth and junior your first priority is to motivate and build composure and confidence.

Personally letting players do press ups, sit ups as warm up but disguising them as punishments or forfeits has no positive benefits. Whilst carrying out warm ups and explaining the whys and wherefore of those exercises are educational and therefore positive.

Would it not be better to react in a positive manner e.g. if a ball is dropped then the players involved must react in a positive manner by dropping on the ball and presenting to the support player via a pop pass or setting up a mini ruck etc. This would be more game related and therefore coaching the players to think correctly under pressure (t-cup).

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jenks — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 11:55:30 GMT

We link the warmup sessions and concentration. As our U13's are now familiar with our warmup sessions they can sometimes go into auto-pilot which they can also do in a game when they are going from one thing to another that they are familair with. We always say that concentrating and thinking is a challenge for them as when this lapses this is when mistakes can happen and they may give away points. As the warmups intensify (speed and small variations) they need to concentrate more. If a ball is dropped, which it invariably is - they are 13, we use the line of a try given away so an excercise, pressups etc, of 5..... when the next drop happens another 5 so then they do 10, we then switch to doing something (wrestling) for 15 seconds etc which can be a bit of fun as well There are two benefits, they are incentivised to concentrate hard for 15 minutes or so, and if they do the excercise they are also warming up other muscles (they might not realise this).

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

didds — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 10:21:20 GMT

Out of interest do the coaches have to drop and give the lads 5 etc when they (ie the coaches) stuff up?

didds

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

dobbin — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 08:38:13 GMT

Ah, yes Iolo, I see what you're saying.

I perhaps took the word punishment a bit too literally and didn't see it in the manner which you have suggested. In that context we usually make them 'drop and do 5' and it has become a bit of a standing joke in our group, but because we consider it a penalty, or a forfeit I didn't see it quite as a punishment.

The idea that mistakes invoke a penalty or forfeit is a view that can be taken, but it is easiest introduced as such at the beginning of the season, so that it is part of the training regime. Indeed, that is what we did at the start of this season - we came to a loose agreement/acceptance in conjunction with the lads of our U13s that this would be part of the 'contract' between them and us as coaches.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

iolo — Tue, 03 Feb 2009 21:34:13 GMT

I'm not sure it's neccesarily that serious. It can just be used as a bit of fun, to reinforce the aims of each session. Self-punishment for dropping balls, throwwing bad passes, is just a way of making sure that players are paying attention to their own performance. It's easy for some players to drift through such practices without concentrating. I don;t think players resent it - I assume here that the 'punishment' isn't harsh -just 10 press ups done while the drill/game is progressing. Of course, it is just one method that can be used, but I don't think it is necessarily negative, or the sign of bad coaching.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

dobbin — Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:09:56 GMT

IMHO there is no situation where you should punish poor performance. Poor behaviour is a different matter entirely, and something we have to deal with in our U13s. Not something I would expect from U19s but I am not speaking from experience with that.

If you really are talking about poor performance then my approach would initially be a word aside with an individual. If its all of them, then I would be looking at my own coaching and seeing if that needs changing.

RE: Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

JDink — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:48:46 GMT

I think it's important to identify WHY performance is below your expectations.

Are players bored?
Do they not understand what's expected of them?
Is the drill physically too difficult?
Are they tired?
Etc Etc

I don't think punishment, like press ups, is an effective tool to respond to many of these issues.

Punishing poor performance in training sessions.

Jonesy — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:29:43 GMT

I would be interested to hear other coaches views regarding the use of punishment e.g. press ups, sit ups etc when poor form has been shown in training sessions. I ask in particular with regard to Under 19's rugby and younger.

Personally I do not find any merit in this practice. I would rather encourage and reinforce good practice.

Jonesy