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RE: sealing at the ruck ?

DanC — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:30:49 GMT

Great video and interesting to see Viadana on tape since Jim Love, one of our regular columnists in Rugby Coach is the head coach.

Iolo, I welcome the debate! I would say that Saracens don't seal on many, if any, of their tries or good attacks, they go beyond the ball. Whether they stay on their feet is a different matter.

"Research" is via Sportscoding of lots of games. The seal will stop the player at the ball. Top sides cannot afford to do that.

The discussion will continue! It might be a discussion of the exact nature of the seal though.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

iolo — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:23:03 GMT

Sorry, here's the link http://www.rugbydump.com/

You can also get stuff on the Saracens site http://www.saracens.com (where this is from) but the videos don;t work so well on my computer.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

iolo — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:19:20 GMT

I know I must be coming across as quite argumentative, so I promise I will stop after this post. Wrt your comment Dan, I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'the research'. Also having watched a number of games with my eyes almost entirely fixed on the rucking side of things (both top-level and u15s) I can say that sealing has been used in every one.

Personally, I don't see how referees are going to stop it: too many players do it; and even those who do not have the intention on stopping over the ball end up doing precisely this. These players often end up in even worse positions (lying on the ball). This is beacuse the one consistent element in rucking styles is getting lower than your opponent. Munster (who must be one of the faves for the Heineken) nearly always end up creating static ruck situations with piles of bodies. Referees don't allow players to come over the top in situations like this, nor say that the ball is out, which I thinkk it technically must be (if all the players are off their feet). I am not saying this helps the game as a spectacle - I'm just trying to be pragmatic.

I attach a link to a video where Eddie Jones provides a commentary over footage from the recent Viadana game. As well as being an interesting watch, it also shows that Saracens' game is firmly based on a sealing approach. They also utilise the hammer to get a supporting sealing player first to the breakdown (e.g. 1.04, 2.07), which I talked about in an earlier post.

Hope this is of interest and doesn't appear like point-scoring, which it's not meant to be.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Angus — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:01:32 GMT

Hi Iolo

The fact is you are relying on other players because if you are there on your own you are going to get monstered - this is why especially from tackle situations from a set piece everyone should know their role - how many are we willing to commit to a ruck if the ball is available how are we going to play on

Where should second pod support be running to and at what angles

As players arrive say the 7 and 8 from a scrum the player behind must be communicating to the one in front if they should go in and clean or protect while he is looking to see if he can pick up the ball and play on or to tell them it is good to pick up and he is there is support for a pop

re the space beyond the ball you can still be protecting it with one foot beyond the guy on the ground and the back foot just behind the ball while your upper body is past him - this is as opposed to getting in a position where the chest is above the ball or the head is above the player on the ground

The key is to have your head up and scanning for opposition players coming in and to drive forward to take them out at the last second before contact and thereby avoiding being a static target

There is a good drill for practicing this called one man one bullet

have a ball on the ground with 3 defenders side by side and facing forward protecting the ball and 4 or 5 more about 2 or 3 yards behind them

Get 5 attackers with hit shields 3 yards in front of the defenders in a line facing them

Start this slow and build up - one attacker moves forward and the defender in the best position to protect the ball from them drives forward just before contact and drives them back and away from the ball

another defender from behind must immediately move i and take their position as another attacker comes forward

If it is the middle defender who goes forward one of the ones either side must immediately move in and over the ball and the new defender reads this and fills the gap

All the time being aware of where the ball is on the ground and not making contact with it

As the attackers speed up communication and vision become essential

Key points

Good body position
eyes up and always scanning
timing the defensive drive for just before contact and winning the collision
Communication to see the ball is always defended and that only one man goes for an attacker not 2 which leaves the ball exposed

Add ons

a couple of cones to act as a gate for the defenders to cycle through as they return from a hit and a man on the ground protecting the ball so the defenders must be aware of not tripping or walking all over him

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

DanC — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:23:40 GMT

Given all the research and the top level games, the seal is becoming a thing of the past.

The key at the breakdown must be keeping players on their feet.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

iolo — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 14:07:14 GMT

Go beyond the ball and you are relying on other players.

Also you are in a weaker position as the player on the floor isn't stopping the defensive ruckers placing their feet close to yours.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Angus — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:14:30 GMT

The key to being the first support player to the tackle is to attack, own and protect the space beyond the ball

By being past the ball you are then in a position to take out anyone trying to get to it and allow time and space for your next support player to play the ball or to come in and be another blocker/protector if necessary

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

iolo — Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:04:54 GMT

1. "What are the technical aspects of sealing? I would presume putting your arms and head on the far side of your player who is on the ground (whilst staying on your feet). This will prevent the opposition from getting to the ball. "

An old, particularly effective, way of sealing was to place the back of your head on the stomach of the tackled player and grip his shirt with your hands. With the new refereeing climate I doubt this is wise, but it points towards the key aspects of succesful sealing:

1. Your body is between the opposition and the ball.

2. Your body is in a stable position.

3. The ball is not past your hindmost foot.

My way of incorporating these three demands and the current interpretation of the laws is to have the sealing player bind on the player on the ground but still supporting their own weight. This is easy enough.The sealer has his feet significantly offset (one quite close to the body and one much further back) allowing the ball to placed away from the front of the ruck, and is so low that it is very difficult to get under him to push off the ball. If he is pulled forward then he is still in an effective position. However any technique which accounts for the key factors above should work.

I hope this is clear enough!

2. "Surely speed of the breakdown has more to do with ball placement and halfback availability than whether the clearout man cleans past the ball or stops at the ball to seal?"

Yes, these are key factors, but the pile up of bodies that can result from players sealing can also be significant at times.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Nieghorn — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 13:45:20 GMT

Flexibility. As in the other modern technique I don't necessarily like (squeezeball, laying the egg ... whatever), I want my players to be safe when they attempt these things.

If they are going to seal a ruck, I don't want their head/neck in a bad position, I want their backs/shoulders slightly above hips - I just want them strong and safe.

I've found that most people who put themselves in the dangerous head down, butt up position don't really have the flexibility to get into a good position while being low enough to do the deed. Hips, hamstrings, lower back - lots of stuff you can look up, and I've even started passing on yoga and pilates stretches (but not telling the lads that!) for them to do at home.

In fact, it was my softening on the idea of doing such things that helped my own back issues - the downward facing dog being particularly useful. (Reason #13 I no longer belong in the front row union - BUT, I've seen some GP teams do things in pre-game warm ups which are essentially yoga moves, so we all have to come around sometime.)

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Roosters05 — Thu, 01 Jan 2009 08:51:11 GMT

I agree with what you have said above. I coach u/19 level and am considering spending alot of pre season time and effort into sealing. It will give us a greater chance of success in playing a wider game.

What are the technical aspects of sealing? I would presume putting your arms and head on the far side of your player who is on the ground (whilst staying on your feet). This will prevent the opposition from getting to the ball.

Surely speed of the breakdown has more to do with ball placement and halfback availability than wether the clearout man cleans past the ball or stops at the ball to seal?

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

iolo — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:59:07 GMT

1. Puts more emphasis on speed to ruck as opposed to size (even small players can seal well provided they arrive earlier than the opposition.)

2. Reduces contest for ball.

3. Choice about when to release the ball from the ruck.

4. Less men committed (as for 2.).

5. Creates a ruck situation (I know this is not technically true) - meaning that the referee is more likely to penalise the opposition.

Collectively these adavantages favour a wide multi-phase game (Australian). I disagree with those people say that sealed ball is necessarily slower - it is on average, but not massively. A clean-out rucking style (no sealing) favours the pick and go style (from the base of the ruck), and can be good for providing some go forward, however it is very vulnerable to turnovers, and lacks width. If you practice 2 or 3 phase patterns you could use clean-out rucks on these, assuming that your players will be their first as there are no decisions to be taken.

Both styles can be negated by getting two defenders into the tackle, and slowing the ball down this way.

A way of adapting to the new rules is to use a hammer (i.e. supporting player binding on to ball carrier). He can then go to ground with the ball carrier, in a protective fashion, which at the least buys you some time.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Roosters05 — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 04:29:46 GMT

Could someone please outline what they think the advantages of "sealing" are?

I presume that the main one is that less players are committed to the breakdown in attack and hence the attacking team has more players out wide to create overlaps and take advantage of space. There would also be less chance of getting turned over/pilfered if you successfully seal?? I am correct?

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Percy — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:57:02 GMT

There is nothing wrong with binding on the tackled player, the law states players arriving at the ruck must stay on their feet. You are deemed to be off your feet if if you support your weight by your hands, arms or knees, either on the ground or a grounded player.

Interpretation is everything, I admit but the consistent advice we have had is that so long as your weight is supported by your feet (ie if you took your hands off the tackled player you would not fall over) you are not committing an offence.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Angus — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:03:30 GMT

[quote][b]denrgj1 (07/12/2008)[/b][hr]The thing that struck me was that the 'clamper' went beyond the ball, so technically a ruck wasn't formed and the ball was in play. Then if opposition players saw this and went for the ball, then the next supporting players cleared these out. My first thought and that of my assistant coaches and captain was that if we were defending this, why commit players to this breakdown when the ball is in play.

Admittedly, it worked well when the ball was quick,the 9 was tactically sound with quick support, but what tended to happen was the 9became indecisive very quickly.[/quote]

Why do the first or rather 2nd plus forwards always look to block? or rather are taught to block / protect I mean if the ball has been laid back and the first supporter has taken out any jackal then the next person regardless of position should be picking it up and playing it in some fashion

The first game of the tri nations between SA and NZ was incredible to watch because both sides as if by rearrangement decided they were going to blitz past the ball and not seal or protect it - it gave me goosebumps cos I considered it a return to pure rucking

The result was there were some incredibly fast passages of play after tackles for both sides and a game played at a frantic pace

So much so that on a couple of occasions each side spat the ball back and drove past it to the extent a defender simply came round and picked it up

That they were able to do that I blame on lack of support but that is another story

Strangely though in the next game both sides changed their tactics completely and it made that game a real one off

Cheers
Angus

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

mikemycroft — Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:49:06 GMT

[quote][b]bigsteve (28/11/2008)[/b][hr]sealing may be illegal, but so is almost everything that goes on in a ruck - as I understand the letter of the law the tackled player must release the ball and the tackler must roll away; a ruck is then formed when the ball is on the floor and opposing players are in contact disputing possession. in theory, once a ruck is formed the ball cannot be touched with any part of the body except the legs until it emerges from the ruck and is picked up by a player not bound on or in contact with the ruck

If I am right in my understanding of the rules the problems that arise are

1. the tackled player rarely releases the ball quickly

2. the tackler rarely attempts to get out of the way

3. the first support players to arrive do not know whether the ball is in open play or whether a ruck has been formed and are unsure whether to pick it up or not

4. the ball gets stuck under a pile of bodies and usually cannot be moved with the feet as required by the laws

5. the ball mysteriously emerges from the pile of bodies

Hardly surprising that kids struggle to do what they are told...

[/quote]

Releasing the ball: should be immediate, but tackled player should not be impeded by the tackler

Tackler in the way should be pinged straight away IMO

supporting players: if they have the chance to pick it up then can. Otherwise if it looks like the opposition will arrive as they do, they should ddrive them off the ball. It is considered legitimate by referees for the players arriving at a ruck to take a step past the ball to dive players away. more than a step is considered to be blocking downfield

Pile up: you have to blow up as unplayable

Ball popping out mysteriously. "hand rucking" the ball back by the side that has won possession has long been considered expedient by refs, the key here is one side has already won the ball, so it has been a way of keeping play going. I think this is a grey area with refs focussing on hands in the ruck

Regarding sealing off, my approach is that players at ruck should be looking for a target in the opposition to ruck, not having the intention to grab the player on the ground and prevent a contest. If they are in a position over the ball with head up, back flat, knees bent I would allow it. If the head is down, backside is up and back is round, I would call it sealing and ping him.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

weathergirls — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 12:15:10 GMT

[quote][b]cjp (09/12/2008)[/b][hr]You make some very interesting points iolo. It seems to me that refs often penalise defenders who look to play the ball when it is clearly out - as happens when attackers clear past the ball. Strictly speaking if the ball has sky above it it is out - ruck over, no offside lines etc so you can come through the middle or round the sides and play it. Perhaps this is refs trying to compensate for rules going wrong?

[b]It occurs to me that if more players in the side were competent in the dummy half role quick ruck ball would be easier to use, putting less pressure on one specialist to always be there.
[/b]
Re LBW the point is less about issues where judgment is involved, more just abandoning chunks of regulations to get the game to actually work. That it happens at all in rugby should be a worry, that top class refs, coaches and players collude in it is a pretty damning inditement of the rules in question.[/quote]

Thats the start of another thread. now that would be 'fast' rugby.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

cjp — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 11:55:56 GMT

You make some very interesting points iolo. It seems to me that refs often penalise defenders who look to play the ball when it is clearly out - as happens when attackers clear past the ball. Strictly speaking if the ball has sky above it it is out - ruck over, no offside lines etc so you can come through the middle or round the sides and play it. Perhaps this is refs trying to compensate for rules going wrong?

It occurs to me that if more players in the side were competent in the dummy half role quick ruck ball would be easier to use, putting less pressure on one specialist to always be there.

Re LBW the point is less about issues where judgment is involved, more just abandoning chunks of regulations to get the game to actually work. That it happens at all in rugby should be a worry, that top class refs, coaches and players collude in it is a pretty damning inditement of the rules in question.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

iolo — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:27:20 GMT

I broadly agree. If the rules are applied without discretion then rucks become very difficult for the attacking side. Whether this would make for a good game of rugby I don't know.

It is my belief that, despite the consensus view, what is required from rucks is not quick ball per se but available ball. If you clean out at a ruck, past the ball, then you get quick ball, but you run the risk of getting too quick ball. Imagine you quickly, efficiently clean out the opposition's jackal, what will the opposition do? They will come around the sides, as the ball is clearly out. This style of rugby puts immense physical and time pressures on the scrum-half, and tends to limit the gameplan to a narrow game as players are forced to play the ball before any kind of backline/attacking structure is set. This can have it's advantages as players are forced to make tackles when going backwards near the side of a ruck, but it can lead to costly turnovers and a simplistic style. This is not say it can't be of use in a structured set of plays. Straight from a precalled move rucking in this way can be very effective, as players know before exactly where they should be going.

The alternative is of course sealing-off. This gives one the ability to keep the ball available until it is actually wanted, it allows a expansive and complex style, but of course it can also lead to slow ball - i.e. ball that isn't available when needed.

I don't have a solution!

With regard to LBW laws there's always interpretation about whether a shot is being played outside off stump!

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

cjp — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 09:13:52 GMT

Interesting stuff. It occurs to me that in all discussions about the ruck and the breakdown there is a pretty big elephant in the room. The uncomfortable truth would appear to be that the rules are not working. As noted in an earlier post, pretty much everything that happens at the ruck is illegal - as we know there are some 17 or so offences that can be committed there. One could penalise almost every ruck. We have a situation at first grade and international level where coaches and referees discuss how certain laws are to be "interpreted". In plain English, which ones are going to be ignored and which ones enforced. At lower levels, as noted in another post, referees will explain before the game how they will "interpret" the laws in this area (that euphemism again!).

This may well be a practical solution to the problem but does not reflect well on the laws themselves. If the police simply ignored certain important areas of the criminal law I think we can be sure there would be calls for law reform. Can you imagine other sports just agreeing to ignore parts of their rules? Imagine two test match umpires getting together with the skippers and telling them that they plan to ignore some bits of the lbw law because they are a bit tricky or don't really work in their view?

Now fortunately the lbw laws do work pretty well and no one has felt the need to ignore them or change them. My point is that what does it say of the laws of rugby in this area when so many are just ignoring them in order to make the game work? I do not pretend to have the answers but it seems to me that where we are is a bit of a mess right now.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

denrgj1 — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:23:54 GMT

I recently attended a session on the breakdown given by a coach from the Saracens academy. In managing the breakdown they had the tackled player 'fighting' to get the ball as far as possible from the contact area, then the 1st support player going over (and beyond) the ball. The role of this player (the clamper) was to scan for threats or clear out straightaway if necessary. the following support players scanned and cleared out opposition players arriving late.

The thing that struck me was that the 'clamper' went beyond the ball, so technically a ruck wasn't formed and the ball was in play. Then if opposition players saw this and went for the ball, then the next supporting players cleared these out. My first thought and that of my assistant coaches and captain was that if we were defending this, why commit players to this breakdown when the ball is in play.

Admittedly, it worked well when the ball was quick, the 9 was tactically sound with quick support, but what tended to happen was the 9 became indecisive very quickly.

Having spoken to a ref from the London Society, he said if the ball was slow and he picked up on it he'd penalize for obstruction.

One of my lads is currently in the Sarries academy and its becoming increasingly disconcerting hearing how they're being coached to step up to the professional game which has no bearing on the grass roots game. As a result, I find that this player is being increasingly penalized at the breakdown.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

tonyb — Fri, 05 Dec 2008 08:43:32 GMT

Surely this just comes down to coaching.We know some ref's let it go and some don't...Take england for example and the lack of quick ball...Sealing is negative play

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

iolo — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:08:17 GMT

With regards to the tackler holding on, the important fact is that referees referee the situation like that. On the plus side it helps the attacking team, on the negative it significantly lessens the effect of turning the ball-carrier in the tackle, taking a skill out of the game.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

didds — Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:02:27 GMT

possibly the tackler rolling away etc thing has come from a mantra that I believe some referees use at the breakdown in order to help them sort out what is happening... something like "tackler, tackled, joining" or somesuch.

didds

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

bigsteve — Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:30:19 GMT

Narkymarky, I don't know where you get the idea that [i]"the tackler must roll away first, then the tackled player places the ball down & back"[/i]. Law 15 simply states that each player must release the tackled player/release the ball [i]"immediately"[/i].

If either stops the other from doing what they are required to do by the laws that is an offence, but neither has the right to wait for the other to act first.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

iolo — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 14:31:55 GMT

The ruck is now difficult to ensure ball at. Wales produced their best attacking performance in Gatland's reign by trying to avoid rucks using offloads. Nevertheless, for all the times the ref correctly blew for players being off their feet at rucks on Sat, there were as many he didn't blow for. Rightly or wrongly, referees take into account other factors like the proximity of support, the speed of the ball, etc.. I guess what the ref was trying to do was penalise instances where the sealing was particualrly egregious -but this means there is a large amount of interpretation involved.

It will be interesting to see whether other sides adopt the offload style. It might be the result of the ELVs and new interpretations depowering the maul and ruck.

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

narkymarky — Mon, 01 Dec 2008 11:01:31 GMT

The ruck is difficult to referee and will always have an element of individual interpretation by the referee. What I do as a ref is explain to the teams how I will interpret this area. "if you are off your feet around the tackle/ruck area I will assume this is deliberate unless you make attempts to move away and i will penalise you immediatley" As you can only seal the ball by being off your feet (or using a support player) this is as clear as I can make it.

Regarding the tackle sequence the tackler must roll away first, then the tackled player places the ball down & back. Again too many players and coaches forget this and moan about "hanging on" whilst they or their players are still locked on to the tackled player preventing release.

I would encourage all who coach mini junior rugby (as i do) to go on an ELR course it will make you a better coach.

Well done the pointy heads for beating the criminals and can you come and show England how to clear out at the ruck and not "seal off the ball" as they did against NZ on saturday.

Narky marky

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Red & Black fan — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 16:35:40 GMT

Agreed- there is a lot of demerit in senior players coaching jnr rugby where law variations exist, but regional interpretation or should that be MISinterpretation! :crazy: is a massive bugbear of mine! While I appreciate every man woman or dog that is prepared to ref, it is incumbent on their schools, clubs & local unions to furnish the poor creatures with the latest laws (the IRB provide such documents for free) If in criminal cases, ignorance is no defence, it should be no different in Rugby!

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

didds — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:21:56 GMT

I am afraid that you have just learned why - wonderful idea that it is - getting senuior players to coach young players is not always a good idea.

Or more pertinently, getting senior players to coach younger players WITHOUT having what they are going to coach exactly pre checked is not always a good idea.

Its exactly thius reason why I have never asked 1st XV props to come down and coach scrummaging! ;-) They'll have LOTS to coach the players... it just possibly isn;t wise for the players to learn this stuff at that juncture of their playig careers!

didds (an ex 1st XV prop ;-)

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

salopsaint — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:51:04 GMT

I agree with what has been said. But i am concerned re this sealing off that has been coached by 1st team to the juniors ( 1st team play Mids 1 and are they not getting pinged for this sealing?)

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

bigsteve — Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:18:00 GMT

sealing may be illegal, but so is almost everything that goes on in a ruck - as I understand the letter of the law the tackled player must release the ball and the tackler must roll away; a ruck is then formed when the ball is on the floor and opposing players are in contact disputing possession. in theory, once a ruck is formed the ball cannot be touched with any part of the body except the legs until it emerges from the ruck and is picked up by a player not bound on or in contact with the ruck

If I am right in my understanding of the rules the problems that arise are

1. the tackled player rarely releases the ball quickly

2. the tackler rarely attempts to get out of the way

3. the first support players to arrive do not know whether the ball is in open play or whether a ruck has been formed and are unsure whether to pick it up or not

4. the ball gets stuck under a pile of bodies and usually cannot be moved with the feet as required by the laws

5. the ball mysteriously emerges from the pile of bodies

Hardly surprising that kids struggle to do what they are told...

RE: sealing at the ruck ?

Ianthesmudger — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 22:49:33 GMT

At whatever age group and irrespective of what county, division, country etc you are in, sealing off is illegal. It has always been illegal but has gone unpenalised for so long that coaches have coached their teams to seal off - I did this myself. I-attended an RFU Coach Development event during pre-season where we were informed that referees had been instructed to focus on two areas of existing law - sealing off and hands in the ruck. The main problem we have encountered at the Colts level is the inconsistency in interpretation by different referees.

sealing at the ruck ?

salopsaint — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:01:28 GMT

We have recently had a coaching session from a 1st team forward for a U12 team in the North Mids Area. They told the kids to " seal" the ruck by binding on to the tackled player on the ground. Often called the " jockey postion". Then the next players the bind on to him.

In two recent games against staffordshire based sides their coaches have complained and stated they have been told by Staffordshire refs that what we are doing is illegal and bridging.

Then i refed a U13 game recently with two North Mids sides one of which were using this technquie and approached the team`s coach and they stated that it was ok in North mids

I am confused....