Better Rugby Coaching / Better Rugby Coaching / The Huddle / When is a ruck not a ruck? / Latest Posts

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

Jonesy — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 12:06:29 GMT

Attacker runs into defender - grabs defender's as in hand off and places ball which is in the other hand on the ground- attacker protects ball whilst still in contact still on his feet with defender - thus Ruck formed. Similar to squeeze ball but ball carrier is still on his feet in a low strong position.

The ball tends to be quick and there is no jackaling possible as the width of the ruck is very narrow and all the off side lines are in place and therefore the defenders all have to retreat. As for its usage - that is for the coach to work out!!

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

Ferret — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 11:13:35 GMT

While I agree with you on the definition, I'm not sure how the situation you describe could help ... if our man is in contact with the defender, but hasn't been tackled to the ground and is confident of staying on his feet, would it not be better to keep the ball and wait for support for a maul? I can't visualise how in this situation you could "place" the ball on the ground without dropping it (risking it bouncing out, or being kicked away by the defender) or being pushed down with it.

I am intrigued though, can you expand at all on how it works?

Ferret

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

Jonesy — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:00:44 GMT

Fathooker - your definition of a ruck is fundamentally incorrect - to form a ruck there does not need to be a tackled player only a ball on the floor.

For example:

If player A carried a ball into contact with a defender B and placed the ball directly onto the floor whilst players A & B were still on their feet then this would constitute a ruck and would therefore set up off side lines and all the additional laws that a ruck introduces.

The situation described above can be used to buy time for an isolated ball carrier. Food for thought - or discussion.

Jonesy

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

FatHooker — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:12:55 GMT

The first thing to remember is when does a ruck form. Obviously it is when there is a player from each side in contact over the tackled player and the ball. Players do not even have to be engaged and pushing against each other, if one player is bridging and another is touching him with the tip of his finger, that is contact!!

As for the player being pnged for diving on theball, I believe it is simply because he didn't stay on his feet and dived on the ground, had he stayed on his feet and played the ball he should not have been pinged.

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

weathergirls — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:41:55 GMT

[quote][b]referee (18/11/2008)[/b][hr]The law here is that if the ball is within a metre of the ruck you must remain on your feet to play the ball, presuming you were onside prior to the ball becoming loose.

The intention is to prevent a pile up of bodies. Mr Barnes was correct, but you do see this action not being pinged at times.[/quote]

i can only remember the pundits talking about the point.
they said that it would have been ok if the falling player had been 3 metres from the ball or breakdown. it was something like that anyway.

i think the confusion was because the ball had slipped out a good way from the ruck.

i can see the intention to stop a pile up, but with stricter ruling on players staying on their feet this need not have applied (in this particular case)

glad we told the boys the right thing:)
more luck than judgement.

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

Ferret — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:43:31 GMT

16.4 (e) a player must not fall on or over a ball as it is coming out of a ruck

Can't see where the 1 metre comes into it, is it a refs guideline, related to the 1 metre "tackle zone" or the definition of "near" for Law 14.... or is it elsewhere in the laws?

How does anyone ever learn the laws of this game?

Ferret

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

Rainier — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:04:29 GMT

[quote][b]Rainier (18/11/2008)[/b][hr]Did Italy not step away from a line-out to prevent a ruck or maul from forming in an international match a while ago?[/quote]

Argh J7, did not read your post correctly. I believe your interpretation of the situation is correct.

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

Rainier — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:00:25 GMT

Did Italy not step away from a line-out to prevent a ruck or maul from forming in an international match a while ago?

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

referee — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:50:31 GMT

The law here is that if the ball is within a metre of the ruck you must remain on your feet to play the ball, presuming you were onside prior to the ball becoming loose.

The intention is to prevent a pile up of bodies. Mr Barnes was correct, but you do see this action not being pinged at times.

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

Jenks — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:25:33 GMT

I don't think the 1m bit applies to the player, I think it's if the ball is within 1m of the original ruck/maul. The only reason I can think of is for safety purposes.

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

weathergirls — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:13:53 GMT

i seem to remember a gloucester match early this year where a player was pinged for falling on the ball when it had spilled out of the back of a ruck.

the player was pinged, by ref wayne barns, because he came from within a metre of the ruck and 'fell on the ball'. he would have been alright if he had picked it up,or, if he came further than 3 metres and then fallen on the ball.

he was not offside as the ball was clearly out.

it looked like one of those early season rule changes as everyone seemed confused.

i dont know enough to say either way, but we have three approachable refs in our age group but none of them knew that rule, or anything that it could have been

i mention it because we tried to get the boys to make an effort to pick up, and then choose to set up, run or pass, so we didnt fall foul of this law.
better to have some options anyway.

this might apply to the other situation

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

Ferret — Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:56:52 GMT

I'm with weathergirls ... if there are not two players, one from each team, shoving over the ball then it isn't a ruck and therefore it must be open play.

This whole "when is a ruck not a ruck" question is very topical in our team. I am trying to get our boys to understand that if the ball is loose they can fall on it or pick it up (subject to arriving at the tackle from the right direction etc) but all too often they wait for the opposition to form a ruck and guess what ... they pick it up instead!

Ferret

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

DanC — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 10:59:23 GMT

This is a great question and one I thought of as well this weekend...great minds...

Have put it to refereeing sources.

RE: When is a ruck not a ruck?

weathergirls — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:23:21 GMT

i must be missing them too:)
i agree with you.

we've looked at this in a soft/stop-start training match. two men on each side walking on the pitch, guiding and geeing-up
two mixed teams, with boys doing the usual stuff at a breakdown.
we noticed that a keen boy would always bridge and not pick up.
his secondary support was lazy/slow so he was, in effect, on his own for a time.

we had our forwards nip around him and not engage the bridging boy, they picked up behind him. and secured the ball for their own side.
lots of calls for offside but i cant see how it is offside if a ruck has'nt formed.

the speed and attitude of this game made this move glaringly obvious but i see it as the same as you described.
i have tried to describe that italian' maul defensive move to some who have not seen it.
you can see the cogs moving but most simply dont think this way. (im not sure i would have)

exploiting rules can spoil the game but i find it interesting to see the 'experts' having to rethink.

i'll wait to see if im told im wrong but as in all things, i'll play the ref.

When is a ruck not a ruck?

kronfeld7 — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 14:10:23 GMT

With referees making the tackled player move away from the ball on the ground, if all of the defending team stepped away from a ruck, thereby their being no physical contact with an oppponent, does this constitute that the ruck is over.

If so, then there is no offside line, defending team could offlicially move around the ruck and take the ball.

The Italians used to do this at Maul time, especially at line outs.

Am I correct or am I missing some laws to stop this happening?