Better Rugby Coaching / Better Rugby Coaching / The Huddle / Hand off to the face / Latest Posts

RE: Hand off to the face

LnC — Thu, 19 May 2011 18:24:27 GMT

As a Society Ref who frequently refs Junior games as well as the adults I get this a lot from coaches (only the ones on the receiving end funnily enough..)

I think that we are there to help the Junior players in their transition from Mini to Adult rugby and the Laws are progressively applied according to their age (and ability which varies not only between sides but even within the team)

At the U13 level i tend to deal with them along the lines of a high tackle, bearing in mind the previous season anything above the armpit is considered high, but as they get older/better I relax this. Also I look upon hand offs as a skill and one to the face is usually the result of a miss/tackler moving head lower, rather than deliberate strike to the face. Its usually fairly clear when its a strike rather than an open palmed hand off and i prefer to look to exuberance rather than cynicism!

By the time they get to U16 they are physically mature and I treat the hand off issue as I would amongst lower level club games.

I reffed at the Roslyn Park 7s finals day where there was no quarter asked nor given amongst the superb players on show that day and im fairly sure what their opinion would be on Junior rugby not being allowed to hand off...

RE: Hand off to the face

liam138 — Mon, 16 May 2011 22:09:52 GMT

I can speak to our Sub Union in the colonies. hand offs are allowed but only below the head in Junior rugby. no hand offs to the head. This is stipulated by the UNION as a process for the referee's not by the IRB law book. which makes no reference to it.

As a Junior coach I teach players to take contact on thier own terms as opposed to just being run over by a much bigger player. This being said a Hand off is a very effective way of teaching two things

1, Ball transferance

2, being aware of thier surroundings.

I coach players to hand off but ensure that they understand that it cannot be used above the shoulders during junior games. I believe this induces good discipline in the player and a longer playing career for the individual that at junior level may not understand the reasons for getting hit in the face whether legal of not.

We all teach good body position in every facete of the game but are we teaching players How to take/Recieve contact out side of the Tackle/Ruck/Scrum.

RE: Hand off to the face

spike — Mon, 09 May 2011 22:26:23 GMT

[quote][b]Tryer (09/05/2011)[/b][hr]Canterbury used to do shin pads that were made of fabric with padding in them. They were a bit like the old heavy shirts that had a couple of layers of cloth and criss-cross stitching. My son had a pair that I bought from Lovellif I remember correctly........[/quote]

Remember those, but never seen a pair of them in the wild....

RE: Hand off to the face

Tryer — Mon, 09 May 2011 13:42:41 GMT

Canterbury used to do shin pads that were made of fabric with padding in them. They were a bit like the old heavy shirts that had a couple of layers of cloth and criss-cross stitching. My son had a pair that I bought from Lovell if I remember correctly........

RE: Hand off to the face

spike — Fri, 06 May 2011 21:45:33 GMT

[quote][b]matty p (05/05/2011)[/b][hr]IRB Law 4.1(a): "A player may wear shin guards which conform with IRB Specifications (Regulation 12)."

[/quote]

And reg 12 explains that shinpads must be compressable types (which I have never seen on a pitch or indeed in a shop). Shinpads as in the plastic shell (rigid) type used in football are non permitted (reg 12).

RE: Hand off to the face

matty p — Thu, 05 May 2011 18:55:06 GMT

IRB Law 4.1(a): "A player may wear shin guards which conform with IRB Specifications (Regulation 12)."

RE: Hand off to the face

didds — Thu, 05 May 2011 12:14:32 GMT

the caveat generally I think is that Spike is talking about the RFU jurisdiction - local variations elsewhere may make these things legal or illegal. My replies below are also based on RFU jurisdiction - others elsewhere may have input too based on their local variations :-)

[quote]

- You can't play TAG rugby with mixed youth age groups and genders (wrong)
[/quote]

clearly that is correct, hence school tag festivals etc going ahead - but it is not permitted under the Age Group Regulations (formerly known as the Continuum). I am unsure exactly WHAT uinsurances are in place at a club in England that does allow it.

[quote]- Blades are banned at this club (wrong)
- Gumshields are mandatory (wrong) - unless its a youth girls game or womens game where they are (but a good idea) [/quote]

But SOME clubs can and DO make these mandatory for their own players. And I can see potentially that a festival organiser could make them equally mandatory for THEIR festival. If a club wants to make a club rule that their players cannot wear blades that's up to them. What they can;t do is then refuse to allow another club's player to play in them specifically.

[quote]

A copy of the LoTG is handy but coaches / team managers need to understand that their opinion of the laws doesn't count. Sorry if this seems harsh but its easier to work to the LoTG then have loads of differing opinions as to what they might be,[/quote]

BUT I don't disagree here at all :-)

cheers

didds

RE: Hand off to the face

spike — Wed, 04 May 2011 22:31:10 GMT

This is one of those areas in the game which worries me. We get into the realm of what some-one things is the laws or that they have a problem with the law as is written.
In the past few years, months and weeks I have heard the following;

- Hand offs to the face are illegal (wrong)
- Shinpads are fine (plastic football type) (wrong)
- You can't play TAG rugby with mixed youth age groups and genders (wrong)
- Leggings are fine for younger players (wrong)
- Blades are banned at this club (wrong)
- Gumshields are mandatory (wrong) - unless its a youth girls game or womens game where they are (but a good idea)

The problem this causes is that these myths grow legs and become "fact" as more people (or people who shout loudly) profess them to be true.

A copy of the LoTG is handy but coaches / team managers need to understand that their opinion of the laws doesn't count. Sorry if this seems harsh but its easier to work to the LoTG then have loads of differing opinions as to what they might be,

RE: Hand off to the face

Ferret — Wed, 04 May 2011 10:05:55 GMT

bigsteve, have I ever suggested a blanket ban? I don't remember doing so. I don't think we are really in disagreement at all; basically, the ref has the necessary weaponry in the existing rules to penalise dangerous play, whether it's an attempted hand off or otherwise. That's all I was trying to say.

RE: Hand off to the face

bigsteve — Tue, 03 May 2011 21:44:02 GMT

Can't agree with you I'm afraid Ferret - the laws of the game are clear that hand offs to the face are allowed and I find it amazing that players, coaches and referees don't want to apply the laws.

Of course there are issues around contact with the eye area and with the shape of the hand, but there are laws which address these issues separately without the need for a blanket ban on a legitimate part of our great game.

RE: Hand off to the face

Ferret — Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:49:20 GMT

...as the originator of this thread all those years ago may I say how proud I am that it just will not die! I think it could run and run ...

I can see that a hand-off to the face may be dangerous play. I can also see that the tackler may be putting himself in the way of it by not being low enough; and I can also see that in the case of "double tackling" it may be inevitable.

I have asked a couple of refs, neither was prepared to say it was automatically wrong, and I have to say I agree. The gist of their replies was that if it was a deliberate blow to the face, it was dangerous, if it was a genuine attempt at a hand off that went wrong, it was okay. Also of course the open hand vs fist or outstretched fingers etc.

Personally I think this is just one of those areas that has to be left to the referee. I don't envy him (or her) the judgment. But I think we can help by coaching the hand off correctly, to reduce the risk of injury and (less importantly) penalty.

RE: Hand off to the face

Chris ScumV — Thu, 07 Apr 2011 15:51:00 GMT

I have issues with the hand off. I belive it to be a major part of the game, yet it is not in the pathway until after a few years of playing (Junior rugby). I think that a hand off to the face is unnaceptable in any way and should be an automatic penalty. I appreciate that if the player is head up then he is in the wrong position, but what about a double hit when one player goes for the ball to rip it clear?

RE: Hand off to the face

slimadey — Wed, 06 Apr 2011 00:04:57 GMT

Simple - 10.4 M

If the ref see's it as a open handed punch then it's in no means good sportmanship.

As for hand off, i coach the Karate Kid "Wax on Wax off" Method too. It's lovely to watch our winger (who is a european) kickboxing champion) leave the opp full back laying flat on their face as she runs in a try.

As for the "stiff arm", I was sin binned not to long ago for charging a tackler and as he rolled back my elbow/forearm raised up and caught him on the nose. 10 mins for a dangerous charge? Since then i've stuck to "foot work and maiagi son"!

RE: Hand off to the face

GrahamS — Tue, 05 Apr 2011 18:11:16 GMT

Has there been any update on views re 'a hand off to the face' following the Callum Jennings case?

RE: Hand off to the face

spike — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 12:56:11 GMT

[quote][b]Ferret (18/03/2011)[/b][hr]Leggings?[/quote]

Yep, the amount of people who believe that the compression type leggings are ok to play in as they have seen [insert winger] wearing them.........

They do not fall into the description of underwear, shorts, socks or shirts and as such are not allowed.

However as they are not specifically banned some people take this as they must be allowed....

RE: Hand off to the face

Ferret — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:14:44 GMT

Leggings?

RE: Hand off to the face

didds — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 22:38:39 GMT

[quote][
Other urban myths include;

- You can't take two quick tap penalties
- Leggings are ok
[/quote]

... Got to let him up....

... double movement....

didds

RE: Hand off to the face

spike — Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:14:12 GMT

Hand offs to the face not being allowed is one of those urban myths. The law does not mention any play of the person a handoff can not be made to.

It is a judgement call by the referee as to safety (being his or her primary concern).

As a coach if a player can be handed off in the face they are approaching the tackle too high anyway. However then dealing with that in a game is a challenge.......

Other urban myths include;

- You can't take two quick tap penalties
- Leggings are ok

There are others but these are good....

RE: Hand off to the face

stuart3826 — Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:14:03 GMT

An old debate resurfacing, and one which has been going on so long, something has changed which could have an effect.
End of last year, law 7 was amended to include "A ball carrier may hand-off an opponent"

The IRB didn't make it easy for us by defining a hand off but not making it easy to find the definition. However RFU reg 15 does define it as "a hand off being the placing of an open palmed hand
by the ball carrier against an opponent’s face or body while a fend off is an outstretched arm by the ball carrier towards an opponent". Reg 15 is the age grade rugby regulation.

Red 15 makes it clear that the hand or fend off is banned in the Continuum, but by omission, it is not in U14 and above.

As a referee, I will make a judgement as to the hand in the face being dangerous or not, and to be fair the majority are not. This has not yet given me any problems.

RE: Hand off to the face

SarryBaldy — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 09:10:12 GMT

I started coaching an U14 team at Christmas after a number of years of Ladies and Senior Men, so I dug out the laws and Variations.

RFU regulation 15 -Age Grade Rugby effective August 2010

5 Variations for U13 and U14

5.3 The hand off/fend is now permitted.

As you see, there is no mention of "where".
Some Referees class "to the face" as dangerous play, so best sort this out BEFORE the game.

However, I have to say, that in my limited experience of maybe 6 U14 games the Referees are incredibly inconsistent on a number of issues, so I now clarify them all BEFORE KO. I carry the printout with me and ask them to show me where in the regs their particular myth comes from. LOL

RE: Hand off to the face

OmarLittleAndAssociates — Fri, 04 Feb 2011 03:09:09 GMT

[quote][b]bafell (03/02/2011)[/b][hr]Refereeing and helping coach a U-15 side in Pennsylvania had me right at the front of this debate last year. The local area union (EPRU) had made a regulation that no hand-offs or fend-offs would be allowed at the U-15 level at all. No face, no chest, no pushing a player off of you that was clinging, hanging and trying to blow out your knees or back.

That being said, the season continued with a few penalties from it and no injuries that I'm aware of. Until we went to a tournament out of state and promptly got pounded with hand-offs all day to the bewilderment of our players.

We were able to get the union to allow all hand-offs except for those to the face merely to prevent injuries later with unprepared players. After all that, my point is that it can be a sanctioned ruling that the referee could be following and not merely his or her whim. That should re-enforce that you coach to take it, be prepared not to use it and always clarify with the referee on what is allowed.[/quote]

damn, that's ridiculous. Stiff arms are the most efficient way to get a tackler off. Also stiff arms are so natural to most of our players, who come from American football, it would take forever to get them out of that habit.

RE: Hand off to the face

bafell — Thu, 03 Feb 2011 17:37:06 GMT

Refereeing and helping coach a U-15 side in Pennsylvania had me right at the front of this debate last year. The local area union (EPRU) had made a regulation that no hand-offs or fend-offs would be allowed at the U-15 level at all. No face, no chest, no pushing a player off of you that was clinging, hanging and trying to blow out your knees or back.

That being said, the season continued with a few penalties from it and no injuries that I'm aware of. Until we went to a tournament out of state and promptly got pounded with hand-offs all day to the bewilderment of our players.

We were able to get the union to allow all hand-offs except for those to the face merely to prevent injuries later with unprepared players. After all that, my point is that it can be a sanctioned ruling that the referee could be following and not merely his or her whim. That should re-enforce that you coach to take it, be prepared not to use it and always clarify with the referee on what is allowed.

RE: Hand off to the face

matty p — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 21:02:30 GMT

I'm a little confused why this issue has risen from the ashes 2011... Didn't the IRB clarify this in November 2010 with a LAW CHANGE, by stating that an open handed palm off IS legal, provided it's not a strike???

Here's a cut and paste:

"The Hand-off
Add new Definition:

Hand Off An action taken by a ball carrier to fend off an opponent by using the palm of the hand.

Add new paragraph to Law 7 Mode of Play:

A ball carrier may hand off an opponent.

...

Date Effective Dec 1, 2010"

However, this Law change does not absolve the referee of the responsibility to observe, judge and sanction play that is dangerous.

RE: Hand off to the face

Jenko — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:39:30 GMT

Thanks Didds

I was going to add that to my post above but couldn't find the reference!

RE: Hand off to the face

didds — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:08:39 GMT

the recent case of Jennings from Whitehaven is very pertinent to this area.

a long and often heated debate regarding this can be found here.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10709

In short it was accepted eventually that the eye injury was totally accidental (caused by a ahndoff) but he still received a FIVE YEAR ban.

didds

RE: Hand off to the face

OmarLittleAndAssociates — Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:36:26 GMT

legal or not legal? I thought that hand to the face is illegal only if its done in a striking manner

[img]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs493.snc3/26941_361869542108_540267108_4006709_3942993_n.jpg[/img]

RE: Hand off to the face

barndor — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:30:57 GMT

I think the ref decides dangerous play and in U13/U14 might stipulate against hand off to face on the grounds that the rules on dangerous play are an attempt to stop serious injury happening. Two things; the tackler cannot play the ball carrier neck up (well, over the shoulders) so it seems fair to apply the rule the other way except that a hand off to the shoulder is good play and not dangerous, and the player tackling like that is unlikely to ever execute a good tackle, so if it worries a player remind them to approach head up but dip the head to drive the shoulder into contact.

RE: Hand off to the face

Ferret — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:56:14 GMT

Well its nice to see my old post come back to life. And not wishing to ignite the old controversy, but Jenko really makes the point I was trying ineptly to make two years ago. Handing off to the face may not be prohibited expressly by the laws but contact with the eyes is, and guess where the eyes are? Accuracy cannot be guaranteed when you are aiming for a moving target with one hand while running at full tilt. The purpose of the handoff should be to fend off the tackle, not to cause injury.

[pauses awaiting onslaught]

Out of interest - the boy who sparked off this whole thread is currently recovering from an operation to reset his nose!

RE: Hand off to the face

Jenko — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:36:01 GMT

Those under shorts are not allowed under regulation12!

That hand off could well result in a 12 week ban at professional level!

[quote]10.4(k) Contact with Eyes or
the Eye Area
LE – 12 weeks
MR – 18 weeks
TE 24+ weeks
156 weeks[/quote]

A hand off well executed might well escape sanction. Poorly executed should be penalised.

The picture would suggest that contact has been made with the eye area! The hand is splayed and therefore more dangerous. Why has he gone for the face when a hand off to the chest would actually be easier? I would ping that as dangerous play.

RE: Hand off to the face

OmarLittleAndAssociates — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 00:05:02 GMT

[img]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs467.ash1/25659_1407454392633_1420631064_31132085_895346_n.jpg[/img]

this is one of my players (15 years old) stiff-arming a 16 year old in the face.

no penalty was called, instead the other coach came up to me after the game and asked if he could have that picture, in order to teach his team how to break down correctly and approach a tackle in the correct manner.

RE: Hand off to the face

didds — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:31:37 GMT

at least a couple of years ago, the "U19 bvariatioons" used by female rugby were in fact variations on the U19 variations AIUI.

W/out wanting to sound as if I am not supporting refs who give up their spare time to give us all a game, I would be inclined after the match to ask the ref politely if they have a source for that ruling as you haven;t come across it before.

certainly standard IRB U19 variations allow handoffs, and - generally speaking - to the face. A ref always has the sanction of a PK for ANYTHING (s)he feels is dangerous play, but one would hope they would explain that - and there is some feedback to suggest that SOME refs consider all handoffs to the face as dangerous play, so you are in the territory now of an ... individual.. interpretation.

didds

RE: Hand off to the face

Merlin44 — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:31:00 GMT

Sunday 16 Jan 2011. Just played our first game,With me coaching the ladies team, Only been coaching them for 2 weeks. We play U19 rules in the Kent society and according to our ref on Sunday you cant hand off above the shoulders, Also ive been teaching them to drop the shoulder when going into contact, This also is not allowed at U19 level which I find bemusing as when I coached the U13s through to U16s level 10years ago both were allowed. Am I getting old and past it or are the younger generation getting softer. Im dumfounded that you are a man at 18 yet you cant hand someone off, yet you can go to war and die for your beliefs in what you are doing. I believe a good hand off is part of the game always has been always should be.

RE: Hand off to the face

engelsman — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 16:54:41 GMT

Well articulated Ruck Off

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 16:48:03 GMT

[quote][b]Ruckoff (03/11/2008)[/b][hr]
I referee regularly at youth level and as far as I am concerned anything above the line of the shoulders is taboo.

This is not taboo andIS allowed under the The UNDER 19 VARIATIONS - FACT. If you are deviating from these LAWS stipulated bt the RFU then you are perpetuating the myth that hand offs to the face are not allowed - WRONG! This is why this thread was started, because of this misconception.

Not allowing Youth teams (U13s - U19s) to hand off to the face IS wrapping them in cotton wool.I know, lets keep them playing tag rugby until they're 18 years old in case they go crying to their Mummy with a bloody nose! In New Zealand, the Under 8's Smallblacks are permitted to handoff (and yes, to the face) So, English13 year old boys are more than ready to handoff and receive a handoff, if they are not, maybe badminton would be a more suitable sport.

I actually feel that the continuum and the UNDER 19 VARIATIONS give a very good and clear progression/pathway for children to follow. The problem arises where coaches/referees take upon them selves to deceide not to follow the Laws for junior rugby and impose what they feel is 'correct'.[/quote]

well said!

The problem arises where coaches/referees take upon them selves to decide not to follow the Laws for junior rugby and impose what they feel is 'correct'.[/quote]

exactly my point.
we play the referee, there is no point in bleating or moaning about rules or rights or wrongs.
we'll all stand in the bar with that losing feeling if we let ourselves be bullied out of games.

i happen to think that a kick along the ground or nutting the back of your own players head, is far more dangerous to the noses of our little darlings.

if i were in charge of the rules then i would ban it into the face.
you will never stop it while the game is played by feisty young lads.

i do agree with the sentiment that it encourages poor play and that some might be put off but those boys would be put off by another form of pressure/intimidation.

amazing to me that there is so many opinions about what is supposed to be ,set rules

RE: Hand off to the face

Ruckoff — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:08:26 GMT

I referee regularly at youth level and as far as I am concerned anything above the line of the shoulders is taboo.

This is not taboo and IS allowed under the The UNDER 19 VARIATIONS - FACT. If you are deviating from these LAWS stipulated bt the RFU then you are perpetuating the myth that hand offs to the face are not allowed - WRONG! This is why this thread was started, because of this misconception.

Not allowing Youth teams (U13s - U19s) to hand off to the face IS wrapping them in cotton wool. I know, lets keep them playing tag rugby until they're 18 years old in case they go crying to their Mummy with a bloody nose! In New Zealand, the Under 8's Smallblacks are permitted to handoff (and yes, to the face) So, English 13 year old boys are more than ready to handoff and receive a handoff, if they are not, maybe badminton would be a more suitable sport.

I actually feel that the continuum and the UNDER 19 VARIATIONS give a very good and clear progression/pathway for children to follow. The problem arises where coaches/referees take upon them selves to deceide not to follow the Laws for junior rugby and impose what they feel is 'correct'.

RE: Hand off to the face

paisleycoach — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:10:34 GMT

With regard to a hand off to the face at youth level, I referee regularly at youth level and as far as I am concerned anything above the line of the shoulders is taboo. This isn't senior rugby we are talking about, it is youth!!..it is nothing to do with wrapping the players in cotton wool or protecting them from all ill's, the object is to encourage players to play rugby and to develop them in the game not to break their noses and having to explain to irate parents about how little Johnny is in hospital with his nose all over his face. The problem is too many people, and this includes both parents and coaches who have played or are still playing the game think of it as a smaller version of senior rugby. We need the youth of today still to be playing in 10, 15 and 20 years time that way they can pass on their enthusiasm and experiences of the game to the youth of the next generation, this is the only way that the local rugby clubs will survive.

RE: Hand off to the face

iolo — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:37:39 GMT

Relating to this thread and the one about only allowing tackles below the waist: there have been a lot of people saying that tackles above the waist show poor technique. Now, for a 1-on-1 sideways cover tackle where that player has no support then a tackle below the waist would be my favoured tackle. But there are plenty of situations where other tackles are vaild, and in my opinion preferable if the player can perform them:

a smother tackle when there is a 2-on-1 (or simply to prevent an offload, slow down the release)

a front-on impact tackle (to drive the player backwards) - here the shoulder would probably contact with the stomach

the second tackler

IMHO as soon as you try to impose that players only defend in one way then attackers will get into bad habits - running too upright, not worrying about the ball, etc..

RE: Hand off to the face

didds — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:19:05 GMT

[quote]
if you get a hand off in the face then it simply shows you have poor technique.
[/quote]

depends though what the purpose is of the tackler who is getting handed off... if he is the "upstairs" ball attacker whilst someone else is the "downstairs" knees tackler there's more chance of receiving the handoff. But the point otherwise is well made.

[quote]
i also think giving one to the face is a poor show.
[/quote]

but if its the only target available...

didds

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:49:21 GMT

[quote][b]winstanley (27/10/2008)[/b][hr]"nothing teaches a youngman quicker than pain."

Dan, can I have my money back please - all those issues of RCJ seem to have been a complete waste of time?[/quote]

am i wrong?:ermm:
i dont think so!

if you get a hand off in the face then it simply shows you have poor technique.

i also think giving one to the face is a poor show.

RE: Hand off to the face

winstanley — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:13:14 GMT

"nothing teaches a youngman quicker than pain."

Dan, can I have my money back please - all those issues of RCJ seem to have been a complete waste of time?