Better Rugby Coaching / Better Rugby Coaching / The Huddle / Hand off to the face / Latest Posts

RE: Hand off to the face

engelsman — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 16:54:41 GMT

Well articulated Ruck Off

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 16:48:03 GMT

[quote][b]Ruckoff (03/11/2008)[/b][hr]
I referee regularly at youth level and as far as I am concerned anything above the line of the shoulders is taboo.

This is not taboo andIS allowed under the The UNDER 19 VARIATIONS - FACT. If you are deviating from these LAWS stipulated bt the RFU then you are perpetuating the myth that hand offs to the face are not allowed - WRONG! This is why this thread was started, because of this misconception.

Not allowing Youth teams (U13s - U19s) to hand off to the face IS wrapping them in cotton wool.I know, lets keep them playing tag rugby until they're 18 years old in case they go crying to their Mummy with a bloody nose! In New Zealand, the Under 8's Smallblacks are permitted to handoff (and yes, to the face) So, English13 year old boys are more than ready to handoff and receive a handoff, if they are not, maybe badminton would be a more suitable sport.

I actually feel that the continuum and the UNDER 19 VARIATIONS give a very good and clear progression/pathway for children to follow. The problem arises where coaches/referees take upon them selves to deceide not to follow the Laws for junior rugby and impose what they feel is 'correct'.[/quote]

well said!

The problem arises where coaches/referees take upon them selves to decide not to follow the Laws for junior rugby and impose what they feel is 'correct'.[/quote]

exactly my point.
we play the referee, there is no point in bleating or moaning about rules or rights or wrongs.
we'll all stand in the bar with that losing feeling if we let ourselves be bullied out of games.

i happen to think that a kick along the ground or nutting the back of your own players head, is far more dangerous to the noses of our little darlings.

if i were in charge of the rules then i would ban it into the face.
you will never stop it while the game is played by feisty young lads.

i do agree with the sentiment that it encourages poor play and that some might be put off but those boys would be put off by another form of pressure/intimidation.

amazing to me that there is so many opinions about what is supposed to be ,set rules

RE: Hand off to the face

Ruckoff — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 13:08:26 GMT

I referee regularly at youth level and as far as I am concerned anything above the line of the shoulders is taboo.

This is not taboo and IS allowed under the The UNDER 19 VARIATIONS - FACT. If you are deviating from these LAWS stipulated bt the RFU then you are perpetuating the myth that hand offs to the face are not allowed - WRONG! This is why this thread was started, because of this misconception.

Not allowing Youth teams (U13s - U19s) to hand off to the face IS wrapping them in cotton wool. I know, lets keep them playing tag rugby until they're 18 years old in case they go crying to their Mummy with a bloody nose! In New Zealand, the Under 8's Smallblacks are permitted to handoff (and yes, to the face) So, English 13 year old boys are more than ready to handoff and receive a handoff, if they are not, maybe badminton would be a more suitable sport.

I actually feel that the continuum and the UNDER 19 VARIATIONS give a very good and clear progression/pathway for children to follow. The problem arises where coaches/referees take upon them selves to deceide not to follow the Laws for junior rugby and impose what they feel is 'correct'.

RE: Hand off to the face

paisleycoach — Sat, 01 Nov 2008 08:10:34 GMT

With regard to a hand off to the face at youth level, I referee regularly at youth level and as far as I am concerned anything above the line of the shoulders is taboo. This isn't senior rugby we are talking about, it is youth!!..it is nothing to do with wrapping the players in cotton wool or protecting them from all ill's, the object is to encourage players to play rugby and to develop them in the game not to break their noses and having to explain to irate parents about how little Johnny is in hospital with his nose all over his face. The problem is too many people, and this includes both parents and coaches who have played or are still playing the game think of it as a smaller version of senior rugby. We need the youth of today still to be playing in 10, 15 and 20 years time that way they can pass on their enthusiasm and experiences of the game to the youth of the next generation, this is the only way that the local rugby clubs will survive.

RE: Hand off to the face

iolo — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:37:39 GMT

Relating to this thread and the one about only allowing tackles below the waist: there have been a lot of people saying that tackles above the waist show poor technique. Now, for a 1-on-1 sideways cover tackle where that player has no support then a tackle below the waist would be my favoured tackle. But there are plenty of situations where other tackles are vaild, and in my opinion preferable if the player can perform them:

a smother tackle when there is a 2-on-1 (or simply to prevent an offload, slow down the release)

a front-on impact tackle (to drive the player backwards) - here the shoulder would probably contact with the stomach

the second tackler

IMHO as soon as you try to impose that players only defend in one way then attackers will get into bad habits - running too upright, not worrying about the ball, etc..

RE: Hand off to the face

didds — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:19:05 GMT

[quote]
if you get a hand off in the face then it simply shows you have poor technique.
[/quote]

depends though what the purpose is of the tackler who is getting handed off... if he is the "upstairs" ball attacker whilst someone else is the "downstairs" knees tackler there's more chance of receiving the handoff. But the point otherwise is well made.

[quote]
i also think giving one to the face is a poor show.
[/quote]

but if its the only target available...

didds

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:49:21 GMT

[quote][b]winstanley (27/10/2008)[/b][hr]"nothing teaches a youngman quicker than pain."

Dan, can I have my money back please - all those issues of RCJ seem to have been a complete waste of time?[/quote]

am i wrong?:ermm:
i dont think so!

if you get a hand off in the face then it simply shows you have poor technique.

i also think giving one to the face is a poor show.

RE: Hand off to the face

winstanley — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:13:14 GMT

"nothing teaches a youngman quicker than pain."

Dan, can I have my money back please - all those issues of RCJ seem to have been a complete waste of time?

RE: Hand off to the face

cjp — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:26:34 GMT

The answer gents is to teach players to parry the fend/hand off as they go in for the tackle. Keep eyes open, for left shoulder tackle, right hand knocks the fend downwards, and vice verca for right shoulder tackle. Should be part of all basic tackling technique.

RE: Hand off to the face

Nieghorn — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 04:26:59 GMT

To bring this back to technical coaching, I've started to include some technique development for five mins at the end of our warm-up. These are little things we don't spend a lot of time doing at training, but are relevant to player needs in a game. Fast feet/footwork is one example, and another we do might be of use to you with regards to this topic.

Have players 'square off' one on one in a little 'knee slap' game. One player acts as a Fender, and the other as a DE-fender.

The Fender must look to keep his/her opponent at arms length, literally, by fending off. You can talk about what ways of fending can achieve a certain effect. For example, if somone's shoulders are too low, or they're unstable, a fend to the shoulder can throw them off balance.

The DE-fender is aiming to parry the fend and get in close to tag his/her opponent's knee(s). We focus on keeping arms in close and in front of the body so as to push the fend away quickly and get in close for a 'tackle.' Arms in close, to me, means they're not wasting time by 'winding up' for a tackle and are thus less likely to make an arms tackle; they're also to focus on a target and keep their core strong in moving forward.

All the while, both players are bounding around on the balls of their feet, in a crouched dynamic position. Have them go for 30 sec. to see how many tags they can make/fend. Aside from working on the tackle approach, they're also working on their core/balance and agility. Then switch roles.

I'm a Canadian coaching in Australia, who played gridiron at school. As that sport has a lot of one-on-one battles, I felt this 'lineman's drill' was appropriate to rugby as we've probably all blown a tackle because of a fend off. It wouldn't hurt anyone to spend a few minutes now and then practicing how to parry away the fend to get in close and/or to appropriately and adequately use the fend without going for the face!

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:00:40 GMT

i tried to edit.
our club coach has sent two of our older lads to a premiership club..

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:57:26 GMT

[quote][b]Ruckoff (22/10/2008)[/b][hr]more opinions that dont actually count!

Not true, they are facts based on the laws of the game! If the the ref deviates from the these he is wrong. True there is nothing you can due about this during a match but you can point out the error in a respectful manner without being a rude coach.

You should always coach your players to play within the laws of the game, that is what the original question was about.If you don't know the laws then you are going to struggle and so will your players.

We coach to play very hard but also very fair with the upmost respect to the referee!

I suspect you lost a cup game because you didn't score as many points as the other team.:)[/quote]

your suspicion is correct :)
that said, it is hard to take when the ref tells the boys that, they are not allowed to pop from the floor or that the tackling player has to roll away and cannot get to his feet and steal the ball from a player who is placing' and waiting for support from his own side.

the boys school side has a county coach, several county players and one who has already played at an schoolboy international level.
the coaches from our club, where most of the boys play, are taught by the same coach who has sent two young players to a premiership club, in two years.
between them, they have a fair idea of whats going on. ( our age group have four referees amongst the dads)

i wanted to wring the refs old fashioned neck that day but instead i bought him a beer and said ''well done sir''.
my moaning would achieve nothing (it is not my place to do it anyway)
interestingly, this ref allowed hand offs.

i dont agree with this 'rules are rules' mentality, i know that on paper it cannot be argued with but in practice, it certainly can.
far better to learn and play the referee than to let the game slip by, and have that awful feeling of all that work and effort counting for nothing. better to learn all aspects of the game.

i must add that i feel i have only seen one referee that was openly bias but that was an adult game and it turns out that our flanker was fighting and had been sent off previously by this referee... our flanker didnt have the sense to keep it shut' and was too obvious in his cheating.
(my club,not my team) i would have replaced the flanker rather than suffer a certain loss but again, it wasnt my call.

im not advocating not learning the laws but i dont see it as simply as others seem too.

i see my way as being pragmatic.

RE: Hand off to the face

Duncan Parker — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:26:29 GMT

finger error from the last post, but if you play to win at all costs then hopefully the referee and other coaches will pull you up.

Remember, this is a contact sport and people are hurt both by mistake but also through intent. It ios the inten that should be removed from the game.

Regards

RE: Hand off to the face

Duncan Parker — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:24:13 GMT

As a new ref, and a coach, the idea of both is to let the players play a safe and enjoyable game of rugby.

If you are at the professional level of playing, coaching and refereeing then you might have a valid arguement, but may I suggest that for most on this forum that is not yet the case?

Referees are coached to use their best interpretation of a situation and to try if possible to let the game flow. if the players can't do that then the referee has certain facilities that he can use such as allowing advantages to go on, stopping the game, or resorting to cards. The ultimate sanction is to top a game if necessary but who would like to explain that away at the next committee meeting?

I find that the happiest players and coaches are those that see a CONSISTENT referee and one who COMMUNICATES with all involved, players and coaches alike through correct signals and verbal contact.

To "play the referee" is to quickly understand how he interpretates the game and the players approach to that game. If you play hard, and to win, but in a manner that is safe and enjoyable then I say get on with it. If you pla

RE: Hand off to the face

Ruckoff — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:43:11 GMT

more opinions that dont actually count!

Not true, they are facts based on the laws of the game! If the the ref deviates from the these he is wrong. True there is nothing you can due about this during a match but you can point out the error in a respectful manner without being a rude coach.

You should always coach your players to play within the laws of the game, that is what the original question was about.If you don't know the laws then you are going to struggle and so will your players.

We coach to play very hard but also very fair with the upmost respect to the referee!

I suspect you lost a cup game because you didn't score as many points as the other team.:)

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:33:44 GMT

more opinions that dont actually count!
it does not matter if you think its legal or not, all that counts is if the ref allows it.
otherwise we become those rude coaches, that on another thread, we all say we dislike.

it might be an idea to make out a list for the referee to take a peek and see what he will or wont allow.
sounds fanciful but i think it would be far better than feeling superior at the bar when your team has been beaten.

why do we need a referee to come on here and tell us a definitive rule when the next ref at the next game will say something different. i dont think you get/can get/do get, standard rules, its a bit of a farce.

this whole game is based on what you can get away with and having the sense to read the ref.

(never any rudeness intended:))

we lost a cup final with a tart of a ref, it was almost like watching netball;it was so different to what we were used too.
there was a lot of wittering about bias amongst the parents.
i was as popular as a fart in a sleeping bag when i suggested that the boys had lost because they didnt read the ref and would learn more from the defeat!
harsh but true..

RE: Hand off to the face

Ferret — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:04:04 GMT

the laws are a nightmare aren't they ... no wonder we have to rely so much on a referee's interpretation ... as a fairly recent returnee to "hands on" involvement in the game as a coach, having not played for many years, the book of rules is never far away from me

I am sure others will have more to say on this. Come on refs I know you are out there!

Ferret

RE: Hand off to the face

Ruckoff — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:44:29 GMT

Your welcome Ferret, we had this issue with teams and refs with their own opinion on what was permitted when our team moved up to Under 13's. We had practiced hand offs in training whist still Under 12's, because it can come as a shock to get handed off full in the face for the first time and wanted our players to be prepared for it.

On a side note are hand offs legal in the adult game??

There is no law specific to the conduct of a hand off but law 10 forbids certain actions e.g. the use of a punch (closed fist) on an opponent and a 'straight arm' tackle with an open hand. By deduction therefore one can assume that a bent arm and an open hand that does not 'strike' an opponent is probably acceptable. Leading or striking with the forearm probably isn't.

But Law 10 also states - Law 10.4 (e) [...] Playing a player without the ball is dangerous play. Is that not handing off??

RE: Hand off to the face

Ferret — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:50:52 GMT

Thanks guys especially ruckoff for the definitive answer to the original question.

Ferret

RE: Hand off to the face

didds — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:22:23 GMT

I stanbd corrected - Ruckoff is correct in that the youth regs do not mention handoffs at all, and thus as such matches are played under the standard lotG - so handoffs are permitted "anywhere" (notwithstanding a refrees unilateral decsion to disagree).

didds

RE: Hand off to the face

Ruckoff — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:48:08 GMT

The RUGBY CONTINUUM covers players Under 7-8, Under 9-10, and Under 11-12 and clearly states no hand offs permitted.

The discussion here was regarding Junior players - under 13's and above, this is covered by the UNDER 19 VARIATIONS.

The UNDER 19 VARIATIONS make no mention of hand offs, so there is no variation from the adult game.

Hand offs to the face are allowed at this age group. It is a myth that you can only hand off to the chest.

Although the referee can stipulate before any game what he/she thinks is dangerous regarding this area.

Under 14's Coach

RE: Hand off to the face

salopsaint — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:03:33 GMT

It was my impression that full hand off in the face were not permitted by the RFU at junior level. Hands offs in the chest from U13s level upwards.

RE: Hand off to the face

didds — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:40:59 GMT

[quote]
We raised this with the opposing coach who said the same had been done to them recently, at the time they had checked with the ref and were told there was nothing in the continuum to prevent it.
[/quote]

Errr... au contraire. Presuming you mean this game was played in England the Continuum specifically states that handoffs are NOT permitted.

And (I am reminded on the RFU forums) the youth regs also speciofically state that it IS permitted.

Reality is AIUI some refs will permit h/off to the head area. others will not, purely on their own interpretation of "dangerous play".

You play the ref, or better still check with him/her before the match.

didds

RE: Hand off to the face

Ferret — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:21:01 GMT

Wow.

You have some strong opinions there and believe it or not, actually I do agree with most of them.:)

For the record the boy was fine, he was agitating to go back on before the end with his nose stuffed with tissue paper(no doubt so he could return the favour!) and he certainly isn't a wimp.

He plays flanker because he is too small to play front or second row. He probably isn't the ideal flanker type but at U14 we play what we have, and he is pretty good

I can always accept criticism but if the players all did what we coached them, our job would be a lot easier.

And I agree with what you say about kids in general, but I don't see that in my boys who turn out in all weathers and cheerfully face up to guys twice their size.

Thanks for being so frank, that's the benefit of this forum after all!

Best - Ferret

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:38:48 GMT

i did try to edit some but i was not allowed.
please bear with me :)

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:35:19 GMT

[quote][b]Ferret

I take your point about WW1 and society's norms, however this is the 21st century and rugby is a game played for enjoyment. In the 19th century boys were sent down coalmines, and before that African children were enslaved, but I don't think anyone would say those facts should inform how we treat children today.

Btw I don't think I ever said the referee is always right, only that his decision is final.

Cheers Ferret[/quote]

i was trying to make a point, rather than score one as such :)
i try not to treat the lads as children' i try my best to treat them as young men. i only treat the ones who act like children, as children.

our kids live in an overprotected world imho. they live in a world of Ipods and being driven to school. they are all better at playstation rugby than actual rugby.

i happen to think that rugby is like life. my part in this is to take them from the 'mrs didds handshake whilst looking in the eye', to deciding if they want to play as an adult.
small things like jacket and tie after league matches with clean shoes and not white trainers.
being at training before the coach, trying to get the boys to get a warm up done before the coaches start with them. looking at the demeanor of the opposition, the sun and wind for kicking options.
leaving that piggin mobile in their bag :angry:
getting them to do,and think, for themselves.

i cannot stand the attention seeking boy who needs to be helped off the pitch after the slightest knock but is running around after the game (not your lad) but we all know the type.
i dont like the type who wants to play flanker because it means he doesnt have to put his head in the scrum.

i apologise in advance but i think that you are partly to blame for that boys bloody nose.
i assure you that no insult is intended but in your answer it shows me that you do not coach your boys to get low enough.

i dont offer opinion in a scrum other than to ''stick your bum out like a page three girl'' :)
i only played there a few times and was rolled over because i didnt know what i was doing.
that hurt a lot and it made sure i listened to the gnarled old gits who showed me how..

i see your lads/flankers nose is a coaching opportunity, particularly if it is on video.
boys learn quick, but they learn quicker if it hurts if they get it wrong.

hope your boy is well and back next week, wiser and tougher.

(there are no sly digs in here (im not a flanker;) your post simply allowed me to speak up.
i know im not alone in thinking like this at my club)

btw, i am not a tough prop type who thinks it was better in mahdaye.
i dont like the handoff used as a punch/dig. i dont agree with a smack to unsettle.
rugby is like life, we learn and deal with what comes..

sorry for the waffle:blush:

RE: Hand off to the face

DanC — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:15:12 GMT

I watched a U13 game yesterday which was extremely well reffed. One player used a very powerful hand off and twice was pinged for impacting with the head. I think the ref was wrong in terms of the laws of the game, but he was consistent and explained his actions clearly.

I would agree that the tackler exposed his head to this sort of hand off. If you are at hip height, it takes some hand off to be dangerous. I know that inside the Unions there is debate on handing off.

Overall, though I think Weathergirl might be a bit hammer and nut in his approach to the game, it is true to say that players need to be "hard" to play the game, though not reckless. If you can't take the rough and tumble then perhaps you are not quite suited to the game.

RE: Hand off to the face

Ferret — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:55:40 GMT

Thanks for your views, I really do appreciate them although I can't say I agree with them all.

Maybe he should have been lower. Doesn't going lower only make it more likely you will get the hand in the face rather than the chest?

I take your point about WW1 and society's norms, however this is the 21st century and rugby is a game played for enjoyment. In the 19th century boys were sent down coalmines, and before that African children were enslaved, but I don't think anyone would say those facts should inform how we treat children today.

Btw I don't think I ever said the referee is always right, only that his decision is final.

Cheers Ferret

RE: Hand off to the face

weathergirls — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:39:23 GMT

i dont know that answer but i'll bet that boy will learn to keep his head a bit lower.

due respect to you m8 but 14yr olds fought in the first world war. society says they are boys but nature says they are young men.

getting a handoff in the face means you are doing something wrong. im really concerned that lots i read on here seems to teach the boys to be 'tarts'..
nothing teaches a youngman quicker than pain.

another point, i thought you said the referee was always right! is that except when someone get handed off?
cant have it both ways.

for what its worth, my son gave and got handoffs at u14 level.
it was never pinged by any referees.

Hand off to the face

Ferret — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:20:54 GMT

one for the refs out there especially

In a game yesterday one of our flankers was on the receiving end of a very effective hand-off to his face. Fortunately it resulted in no more than a severe nosebleed and him having to leave the pitch for the rest of the game.

We raised this with the opposing coach who said the same had been done to them recently, at the time they had checked with the ref and were told there was nothing in the continuum to prevent it.

We also asked the (independent) referee yesterday, who confirmed this.

Is this right?

It seems incredibly dangerous to me given the potential for neck injury. And of course the boy's mother, who witnessed the whole thing, will no doubt now be wondering if her son should continue to play if he is in danger of this happening deliberately.

any views welcomed - cheers, Ferret