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RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

Red & Black fan — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 21:21:55 GMT

Thanks for that Jez- good to get the picture from a schools/ development perspective. In view of a few other threads, its also interesting that you say you're against the hand off/ fend & penalise it, when there is no law against it. As a coach, this is a skill that I teach & practice regardless of age, so i'd be pretty hacked off & would let you know it at half time if you were reffing my boys & penalising them for it, while your contention is that they / developing players may not have the skill set to hold the ball in one hand... difficult & frustrating for all parties I guess...

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

Jez — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 18:00:38 GMT

I'm a PE teacher, coach and referee, I have worked with players from primary schoolas up to men.

The reason Primary schools teach tag is that is what is encouraged and supported by the RFU through the School Sport Partnership, mainly because there are almost no PE specialist teachers in Primary schools let alone Rugby coaches. I have worked in Thanet, Kent where the local Primary school rugby is still run as touch rugby, with no scrums but with unopposed line-outs. However this is again at years 5/6 (10/11 year olds). Tag rugby is taught lower down as an introduction to teh game.

The biggest problem is at U12 level! The difference between school and club is ridiculous! Having worked in maintained and independent schools there is little difference in thier approach and I believe that at U12 they are ready to play 15-a-side on a full pitch. Club rugby at U12 is a mess, there are too many players on too samll a pitch. The continuum needs changing to bring in the no 8 at U11, then play full 15s at U12.

As to the schools using hand-offs I am strongly in favour of NOT allowing this at any age group up to U14. The basic skill levels are too low in general handling, the more players that can carry the ball in two hands the better. This is actuclly in the continuum but so many CLUB coaches, even in the lower age groups, do not insist that thier players do this, so many players are allowed to get away with this. I have always insisted and penalised players for handing / fending off. As a result the players are more inclined to PASS the ball and keep it out of contact.

As to the rules NO players below U19 are allowed to pull down a maul, this is includes U18 1st XVs. I have refereed several games at this level this season and at mens rugby and this does not seem to be a major factor in any games at any level.

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

didds — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 10:04:31 GMT

[quote][b]steve johnson (05/11/2008)[/b][hr] A lot of clubs have distinctly separate age group teams, with the players firmly identifying with their own coaches. The only way I could see the expansion of the idea of weight-based teams would be to have regular mass sessions across age groups to teach/coach individual aspects of the game (for example, all the forwards in a scrummage session, half backs working on passing, other backs working on other attack/defence activities).[/quote]

Whilst I agree Steve has described the issues pertinently, they are all issues that can be addressed by clubs and schools - IF they so wanted. Or rather, percolated down from the NGB to its regions and clubs and schools via development officers. There are elements of what Steve has described happening oin our club already.

However - I would also add that in my direct experience of trying to get these things to occur there is a lot of resistance... becasue it is so alien to what is "the norm", and typically of course many junior coaches are there because their sons/daughters are. They aren;t interested in being part fo a different pictuyre because its not what they are there to do, or is too different for them to think about.

Notwithstanding for the NZ system to work in such cultures it has to be right across the board otherwise its meaningless to even drive towards the situation that Steve latterly describes (although IMO there would be many other coaching benefits to be gained iMO).

:-(

didds

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

steve johnson — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 11:37:12 GMT

From what I saw when I was there, the New Zealand weight model works because it is in operation in both schools and clubs, and there did not seem to be a big gap across the ages. Whether that would work here from a social point of view - youngsters not welcoming others from "other" ages - especially younger ones - is questionable. A lot of clubs have distinctly separate age group teams, with the players firmly identifying with their own coaches. The only way I could see the expansion of the idea of weight-based teams would be to have regular mass sessions across age groups to teach/coach individual aspects of the game (for example, all the forwards in a scrummage session, half backs working on passing, other backs working on other attack/defence activities).

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

Ferret — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:27:30 GMT

Don't get me started on the subject of the demands of the school team vs the club team ... !

As far as grading by size is concerned, it is an interesting concept, and I can see the theoretical attraction but I personally couldn't support it.

For one thing I think the transition for existing teams would be a disaster. I am privileged to help coach a fantastically tight-knit club squad, many of whom have known each other and played rugby together for half their lives. To split them up and spread them over two or three different teams is just unthinkable.

The other thing is that IMO, rugby is played with the mind as much as the body. Like it or not it is a complex game, and at mini and junior level the difference in thinking power between the years is very noticeable. To my mind it would just be swapping one set of imbalances for another.

Cheers Ferret

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

winstanley — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:46:29 GMT

It isn't just the rules that annoy me, it's the number of games. A club player can play 17. A school player can play 17. A player who plays for school and club can play 34. How is that justified?

The other thing that occurs to me is New Zealand. I keep being told they grade their junior players by size and weight, not age. Seems to work for them so could we give that a chance? As things are at the moment we waste a lot of small players every year as they lose confidence or get battered. I know rugby is a contact sport, but it's also about building a strong game that's accessible to all isn't it?

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

turbo — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:54:20 GMT

Hi Guys

Just thought i'd throw this one in for good measure. Here in Wales school and club rugby are exactly the same.

I will confess however that some schools will only do tag at yrs 5 & 6 but that is down to them and not a governing body ruling

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

steve johnson — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:53:45 GMT

The basic problem is that schools have to make PE programmes for all - whether their students have played rugby or not, and the huge majority of school children will not have played rugby in any shape or form. Thereafter follows 5 or 6 weeks of once or twice a week lessons, in which the students MAY remember their kit ( and almost certainly will not have mouth guards), MAY attend every lesson, MAY remember what was done in the previous lesson, and may have a desire to do more than "get" someone else in class.

Their teachers may not be rugby specialists, and they may not have been able to take any RFU proficiency courses. They WILL have had to include risk assessment in their written lesson plans, and this is not easy when planning TACKLING (potentially the most dangerous of all activities), RUCKING (try telling an OFSTED inspector that "taking someone out" is a safety activity!), and the SCRUM (try telling an OFSTED inspector that you plan to SAFELY have 16 players pushing neck to neck against each other!). Playing and safety equipment at most schools will be minimal or non-existent, and probably extremely old!

Sport (including rugby) is making a belated comeback at schools, but it is a long way from the benefits offered by most clubs. Be patient, cross your fingers, badger you MP, and maybe one day, the circumstances and rules will somehow make sense.

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

Red & Black fan — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:21:43 GMT

:angry: Isnt this so typical; of whats wrong with our game!? At the risk of being accused of getting on my hobby horse AGAIN, this is what i've been banging on for a while... the 'game' has so many versions & varieties, local interpretations & idiosyncracies, incompetent coaches & referees... these last few months, all i've been hearing (MAINLY from professional clubs, Unions & coaches in the NH mind!) is how bad the ELVs are but THATS not the problem- its all of the above! I mean look at Football/ soccer (& it PAINS me to use that AWEFUL sport as an example!) they have ONE game- regardless of country, level of play & hemisphere... & while I acknowledge the safety aspects & appropriate variations for those reasons in Rugby, we still have an INCREDIBLY fractured game...& more than anyone else, the IRB are at fault for this IMHO.

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

didds — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:26:52 GMT

[quote][b]salopsaint (21/10/2008)[/b][hr]The RFU has stated that no U18 games or below can pull down a maul so no club or school players should be pulling down mauls at junior levels.[/quote]

What is ESRFU's take on this though?

didds

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

salopsaint — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:44:22 GMT

The RFU has stated that no U18 games or below can pull down a maul so no club or school players should be pulling down mauls at junior levels. Hand offs ( not in the face) are only allowed in 15 a side games( so U13s at club & Year 7 or U12s at school.)

I think the RFU has asked the schools rugby to tow the line re continum but i think the schools esp the "public rugby schools" like their independance!!.At club level i think at U12s it is perhaps a question of space at some clubs. As if U12s went to full side pitch many clubs would struggle to find another full size pitch on sundays. I think that school rugby at year 7 should reflect the club rugby esp for boys ( and girls) whose first experince of contact rugby is at starting secondary school.

I am a referee, U12 club coach and help a year 8 school side

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

didds — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:48:04 GMT

[quote]Why are schools not governed by the Rugby Continuum, especially when numerous schools we have played the teachers always state that they can not referee as they are not confident enough to do this, but have coached/ taught the students at their school.[/quote]

.... because I am told that " the schools" claim that ESRFU is the senior/older body than the RFU so it up to the RFU to cow tow to their interpretation.

So its either the schools that are obstinate, or the RFU. take your pick.

Shame the adults cannot sort out their differences for the benefit of the youngsters.

T'was ever so I guess

didds

RE: Difference Rules between club and school rugby

Duncan Parker — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:36:23 GMT

I agree that there is confusion with the age groups between school and club. I coach U7 & U8 at club level and therefore tag rugby, my boy is in Yr 3 at school and they will start to learn tag rugby in years 5 & 6 which is U10 & U11 at our club.

By the time he starts rugby lessons at school he will have been involved with full contact for 2 years and will not want to go back to tag at school. But more importantly, for those kids at school who want to learn more about rugby after their first tag lesson in yr 5 they are thrown into full contact at their local club with kids who have been learning for a couple of years.

There does need to be some link between the schools and the clubs, with possibly more direct involvement between each other.

Difference Rules between club and school rugby

kronfeld7 — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 16:55:50 GMT

Being a PE teacher and a Rugby Coach to both an under 12 and a senior side and having played rugby for far too many years. I am becoming more and more frustrated about the different rules applied in different areas and different competitions.(Nothing to do with ELV's)

Namely, under 12 rugby at school level is a 15 a side game, with hand offs allowed, as well as some or all of the new ELV's being applied including dragging down the mauls. (scrums 8 man, number 8 being allowed to pick up , scrag tackles allowed etc). This is also played a full size pitch

Yet at club rugby, where you have the boys who wish to play rugby voluntarily, the game is 13 a side (6 man scrums, no number 8 pick up) etc. Being religiously applied. And the fact that it is played on half a pitch.

There has to be some consistency in the rules, as many of my players are confused about what they can and can't do. Why are schools not governed by the Rugby Continuum, especially when numerous schools we have played the teachers always state that they can not referee as they are not confident enough to do this, but have coached/ taught the students at their school.

My boys come to me on Sunday morning, saying the are allowed to lift legs in mauls, collaspe mauls by dragging it down, and hand off to chest. I then spend the first half hour of training breaking these bad habits, so that when we play 'club' rugby we are not penalised off the park.

The boys I coach do not play at private/ public schools but at local comprehensives. Pleased don't get me wrong it is vitally important that the boys play rugby at school and at clubs, but there does need to be uniformity in the rules.