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RE: 2nd row - front row bind

Rainier — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:23:47 GMT

The lock bind around the prop is part of the Bajada technique, surely the most fearsome scrumming technique I have ever seen.

The crotch bind without actually binding on the shorts is very interesting and will form part of my pre-season training, a high elbow is vital when using this bind.

RE: 2nd row - front row bind

Tobes6 — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:28:29 GMT

HERE HERE - FASCINATING THREAD THANKS GUYS!

TOBES6

RE: 2nd row - front row bind

Angus — Sun, 09 Nov 2008 05:26:02 GMT

[quote][b]didds (07/11/2008)[/b][hr][quote]
except of course that such a bind is illegal by the wording of the laws becaseu all scrummagers with the exception of the front row must have at least one arm bound on a lock. ;-)[/quote]
Perish the thought that anyone, especially a forward would try to circumvent the laws, but the France Argentina game from last night has 2 great examples

47:44 - The irony is killing me but the French number 7 gives a perfect example of a crutch bind on his prop's right leg while his lock crutch binds on the left one

41:23 - You can see the the right Argentinian Lock using an around the waist bind while the left one uses a crutch bind

This is something I picked up on in the world cup and thought they must be leaving it to the lock and his prop to work out how they want to handle the binding themselves. I can't recall the game that was in but now I think about it I am sure that it was the same way round - right lock outside and left lock crutch bind. As I am fairly positive it was not all the same players involved last night I am now wondering if that is a policy they are using but without multiple games to review I can do no more than speculate

Angus

RE: 2nd row - front row bind

Angus — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:01:20 GMT

Didds I didddddn't realise you had a stutter :cool:

For the record my preference is the crutch bind with the fist as described as opposed to the Argentinian style but when I was coaching there I wasn't going to try and fix something that wasn't broke lol

Angus

RE: 2nd row - front row bind

didds — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:33:46 GMT

[quote]
Their logic for this is simple - by binding round the hips of the props it allows the locks to pull them in if necessary in a far more effective way than a through the crutch bind allows in fact is it even possible for a lock to help straighten a prop who is having their arse forced out when using a crutch bind?
[/quote]

Not quibbling with an Argemtine pack that specialised in this but I';d say the sim0ple answer to your question is simply - yes a crutch bind does help prevent this. the key though is not just that the arm goes through the crutch - it has to bind up high on the INSIDE of the prop's shorts. So #4 would bind somewhere up near #1's right pocket area, close as possible to his own ear. This means #4 is lockiong #1's right hip into #4's shoulder/neck/ear - any movement of #1's left hip outwards thus swimnging his bum left is countered by #4 keeping it pulled around in and tight. A closer bind such as I describe engages core far more effectively than a wide round arm bind as would be required by an outside hip bind.

As I say though, this isn't to diss an argentine pack that obviously perfected this system of binding - but I maintain that the crutch bind CAN be effective in this manner - but needs to be done correctly (as of course an outside hip bind would need to be).

[quote]
An added option when the locks bind round the hips is to have the 6 and 7 use a crutch bind on the props
[/quote]

except of course that such a bind is illegal by the wording of the laws becaseu all scrummagers with the exception of the front row must have at least one arm bound on a lock. ;-)

[quote]
Hand in a fist and NOT bound on the shorts of the prop
[/quote]

Not heard that one before - sounds very interesting.
[quote]
A final trick I have started using when packing the full scrum against the machine is once they are packed get them to close their eyes. Now tell them to move the machine but no-one is allowed to speak - they have to rely entirely on feel and reacting with each other - closing their eyes forces them to heighten their other senses in particular feel
They will think you are weird and have problems initially but after a couple of goes they will be amazing themselves - guaranteed :)
[/quote]

that sounds good too :-) I've used the pyramid structure as well - ie LH+HK+4 v TH+5+6/7 ... this method of scrummage practise also highl;ights the concept of a scrum being two pistons left and right, rather than two or three rows. ie working lineraly rather than laterally. The theory as I understand it being that the locks are not necessarily tight on each other as long as the two pistons are tight within themselves.

[quote]
Sorry this has turned into a bit of a scrummaging marathon but once I get started......
[/quote]

don;t EVER apologise for talking about scruammaging!!! ;-)

didds

RE: 2nd row - front row bind

didds — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 10:30:12 GMT

RE: 2nd row - front row bind

Angus — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 22:32:05 GMT

The scrum has changed a lot in the last 20 years

For example I remember at training the front row would pack against the machine and the 9 would stand at the tunnel with the ball at waist height when crouched and release the ball without warning and the hooker had to strike and touch it before the ball hit the ground

Nowadays the partially squint feed is the norm with it usually being combined with the 9 putting a wrist spin on the ball when entering it

In effect this has all but done away with "hooking" being a necessary core skill in a Hooker

As a result I believe many of the traditional front row binding techniques are now redundant

The priority now is to provide as square a set of backsides as possible for the middle row to drive on and this also involves some of the locks weight being on the hooker

The hooker nowadays only has to make a very small movement of his foot to hook the ball due to it being presented literally at his feet by the 9

In Argentina our "Hooker" didn't even strike for the ball and the scrum relied on pushing the opposition off the ball to win it

When I queried him about this he said quite simply that if he raised his foot to hook the opposition would drive us off the ball

In a scrum you have to think about where the most pressure is likely to come from and that is from the opposition 1 in an attempt to turn or at least disrupt your scrum

If your hooker is bound tight to your 1 then your 3 is essentially left on his own to handle this

Think about if you want to turn the opposition scrum - clockwise - in this situation you definitely get your hooker to bind tight on his loose head and have them both target the opp 3 with your hooker driving slightly out

Now look at it from the situation of your put in and the opposition trying to do this to you

Do you have your hooker bound tight on your loose head and in turn move him away from your 3 and their hooker? If you do you are only compounding the physics and the leverage the opposition are trying to use on you

If anything I believe your hooker should be tighter on the 3 than the 1 in order to meet force with force by presenting a united front

Remember that on your own feed unless you are putting a move on which requires a twist of the scrum in either direction then all you are looking for is a lock out and stability

As Steve mentions, in Australia, the crutch bind is not allowed until you leave colts (under 19s) and move to senior rugby. However in Argentina the round the hips of the prop bind is a very common occurrence and this I believe was introduced by the CASI club who were renowned as the best scrummagers in Argentina - praise indeed

Their logic for this is simple - by binding round the hips of the props it allows the locks to pull them in if necessary in a far more effective way than a through the crutch bind allows in fact is it even possible for a lock to help straighten a prop who is having their arse forced out when using a crutch bind?

An added option when the locks bind round the hips is to have the 6 and 7 use a crutch bind on the props thereby seriously channelling their drive directly through the props

But I digress as not may forwards or coaches would introduce such an untraditional and untested system into a country other than Argentina. Having said that thought 10 - 15 years ago the Argentinians were renowned as the world's best scrummagers but in the years since professionalism this has ceased to be the case

I attribute this entirely to the migration of their top players to Europe where their traditional scrummaging techniques have been coached out of them in order to conform to the northern hemisphere norm but that is another discussion entirely :)

Getting back to the crutch bind Mike Cron the All Blacks Scrum Doctor advocates essentially what didds has said with the key factors being

Ear hard against the hip
Hand in and round the inside leg and pull the ear harder against the hip
Hand in a fist and NOT bound on the shorts of the prop

Crono even said he sometimes gets the ABs Locks to practice their bind with a boxing glove on so they can't bind on the shorts even if they wanted to.

Steve - a modification of your group drill is a full isolation one where there is no place for any player to hide and they must rely entirely on their own technique and opens them up to enable to clearly see individual technique

It works as follows

Stage 1

LH and HK bind and pack v the TH - do a few of these and critique and correct

Stage 2

Introduce the 4 behind the LH and HK and put the 5 on the tight head with one of the breakaways on his outside and now pack a few - this isolates the locks as they don't have their partner to bind on and support them and you can clearly monitor their position and technique

Stage 3

Add the other breakaway to the LH and the No 8 to the 5 on the tight head's team and pack some

Start slowly with these because if anyone is not packing straight and maintaining their position and stability on contact they will end up in a heap on the floor

Once they can pack in this formation against each other with some force you will only have to ask them about the difference they feel

A final trick I have started using when packing the full scrum against the machine is once they are packed get them to close their eyes. Now tell them to move the machine but no-one is allowed to speak - they have to rely entirely on feel and reacting with each other - closing their eyes forces them to heighten their other senses in particular feel

They will think you are weird and have problems initially but after a couple of goes they will be amazing themselves - guaranteed :)

OK one more final final thing lol

One of the biggest issues with scrums is the props' feet and how they always move them when they make contact but 90% of the time they don't realise they are doing this or simply refuse to believe you when you tell them

While the easiest way is videoing them and then actually making them see and acknowledge they do it is the best way not everyone has the luxury of having a video and play back facility at training so here is an alternative

With just the front row - pack them down against the machine and get the props to adjust their feet so they are in the optimum position for pushing

Stick a golf tee in front of each boot then get them to withdraw from the machine

now get them to form up with the toes of their boots against the tees and wait for them to say how strange it feels but persevere and get them to pack

You can work this from the other angle as well by getting them to form up ready to pack and putting the tees in then seeing where the front of their boots are in relation to the tees after they engage

Sorry this has turned into a bit of a scrummaging marathon but once I get started......

Cheers
Angus

RE: 2nd row - front row bind

steve johnson — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:36:27 GMT

When we went to Australia with our school team a few years ago, we bound as Didds indicates, and found that Australian youth teams were not permitted to bind through the legs of the props. Since we were visitors, they kindly changed their local rules for us. It stimulated some discussion among us after the game, and after a LONG while, we all concurred that for younger players, binding by clutching the inner thigh of the prop, with a high elbow, might be the best method for younger players. Think it through, here is no downward tug, and the inner leg of the prop does not go outwards as the hips and upper body sometimes do. We tried it on our return to Japan, and it did straighten us up considerably. We started by practising with separate groups 1 and 4, 3 and 5 (only) on the scrum machine. Then we did 1, 4, 6 and 2, 5 and 7 separately. Then we did all in except the hooker. The principle was that since the hooker was not there, the locks would HAVE TO push straight, even outwards, and they did. It went well, and in subsequent games, thanks to our straighter technique, we munched bigger and potentially stronger packs.

RE: 2nd row - front row bind

didds — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:33:21 GMT

my initial thoughts are that this is a really intesting question. I'd like to take them away and play with them in reality :-)

Initial thoughts are

[1] loose head/tight head binding order. The important bind (accepted wisdom) is the loose head/hooker bind, as that is where the hooker needs to be ie closest to the left side of the scrum. Also it helps to overcome the work of the oppo TH on the hooker by provisding a concerted oppsition of two FRs (LH+HK) versus one (oppo TH). So its generally accepted that the LH binds up first to ensure as tight a bind as possible. In trerms of the effect of this pulling the hooker away from the strike direction is mitigated by the LH bind being underneath the hookers right armpit... thus not restricting the striking hip, and binding tightly the least movable part of the hookers body wrt the rest of the FR ie the shoulders, which probably won't twist far anyway. The TH bind is typically in the hookers waistband, helping to pull the non striking hip round to open up the hooker's hip range.

[2] 2nd row bind. the accepted approach is crotch bind with the grip being on the inside of the props shorts... not central on the waistband, but in fact as close to the 2nd row's outside ear as possible. The effect of this bind is thus to pull the inside hip out... thus helping the props to stay square. The typical direction of slippage 9so to speak) of a prop is in towards the hookers (a la "boreing"), which would mean the inside hips swinging backwards and away (for the TH thus anticlosckise, LH clockwise). The 2nd rows shove and yighness to their shoulder helps offset this, and the inside bind holds the hip open rather than collasping inswards. It also utilises the bicep (stronger muscle) of course. Finally the 2nd row bind should not be acting DOWNWARDS but BACKWARDS - the prop's hip should be pulled into the 2nd row's shoulder NOT towards the floor.

This isn;t to mean I think your feiend's ideas are wrong, just that maybe nobody has thought of them before (and innovation is to be applauded!). I'd like to find the time and players to try them out sometime :-). The above is accepted practise and wisdom as said.

What writing the above did illustrate to me as I wrote it is that the above - and espcially [1], is very much the process on "our ball". On oppositon putin, could be we need to reconsider the front row bind order to help tighten the hooker towards the ball where it is put in. If the hooker is a striker, depending on what foot they wish to strike with (though a left footed strike against the head is difficult to imagine being overly successful considering the relative foot positions available maybe) could be the armpit/waistband bind also needs to alter.

How many of us work on the differences in put-in with our packs?

Good questions from the OP :-)

didds

2nd row - front row bind

Redcoat — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:24:16 GMT

Just chatting to my co-coach who is up in the world of coach coaching etc. I explained my way of getting the loose head to bind to the hooker first and then the 2nd row bind through the legs and then as close to their ear as possible...and then he stopped me.

He said why does everyone get the loose head to 'walkaround,' the hooker first with a tight bind in essence pulling the no.2 around so he is angled towards the tight head - and not the other way i.e facing the loose head side of the scrum, making it easier to hook.

And secondly - the 2nd row bind through the legs on the props waistband surely adds to the props problems by pulling him down. Wouldn't it be better, he argued if the 2nd row actually bound around the prop's shorts or through the legs and then as far as possible outwards (though hard on the triceps). Hence pulling the prop around square - spines in line basically.

First post so be gentle!!!

;)