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RE: Dealing with a rude coach

winstanley — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:35:17 GMT

At the Lexus Festival in Sheffield a couple of weeks ago coaches were offering loud and unwanted advice from the side in our first two matches. On both occassions the referee came over and asked them to let him get on with it. They behaved for the rest of the time. Both refs were good humoured about it, but firm and clear about their expectations. The key, I think, was that they caught it early and put a stop to it.

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Bex — Mon, 27 Oct 2008 08:39:14 GMT

I came across such an example of an 'unruly' coach working with u12s towards the end of last season.Sadly he was completely negative towards the ref during his game and his own players (resorting one to tears!).His 'bully boy' tactics won 'him' the game because he intimidated the ref and our team so badly.

Last weekend we encounterd this same coach this time on neutral turf he was living up to his usual standards and was duly sent off by the ref.As luck would have it the officiating ref was a society ref and as such has the authority to report this guy and is doing!

As WO of a junior section i hold it as my responsibility to monitor all the coaches/volunteers who work with the players on a Sunday and make sure that their conduct is in line with what is required by the RFU and acceptable,civil behaviour.The club should take responsibility for its members and instil the correct line of conduct and discipline or how can they be allowed to guide young players. As mentioned in an earlier post we,as coaches, are modeling the future of the game and future social skills of our players.Examples need to be made of the 'bad apples' its a shame for this coaches club and the ref involved that it has taken yet another 'dispicable public display' to sort this one out!

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

steve johnson — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 14:09:13 GMT

As a coach who sometimes referees, I must say that I have very rarely come across refs who are biased (or at least show their bias). As far as competence is concerned, one hopes, but one should not expect. Sometimes one has to say to the players quietly, "He doesn't seem to know that rule, but he is playing the same for both teams - live with it." Without that one person, all the players in the two teams could not play the game. Most referees at the junior/children's level are Sunday volunteers, and should be appreciated as such. Assessment forms are going to send these refs back to their armchairs, and most cannot spare the time (or expense) to take qualifying exams.

The only thing is that if you can't stand the situation as is, get qualified, get a whistle, and get out and do it. I loved one comment after a recent Under 11 game, "Refereeing these games is like playing Play Station without the hand controls isn't it!"

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Jenks — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:47:12 GMT

I'm a coach (U13) and I also referee mainly for U13's but also for other ages as well when needed. Before the game starts I always same the same thing to all players and their coaches before the game starts.

"I will make my decisions based on what I see not by players, coaches or spectators see. I will make mistakes and so will they, if we add them up at the end I'm sure they will have made more; knock ons etc. As I will not start going on at them for making a mistake I don't expect them to do it to me. If they have any questions during the game then I will only listen to their captain if they can find the time to have a chat during the game then that's up to them. Coaches are more than welcome to speak to me at half time or if there is a break due to injury." I ask for confirmation that they understand and sometimes I will remind them during the game. This tends to work OK on the whole.

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

madbraddrfc — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:14:06 GMT

[quote][b]referee (29/09/2008)[/b][hr]

If it continues and/or becomes worse maybe you need to stop the game and warn him that ifhe continues in that manner you could report his behaviour as a ''code of conduct'' to the District Society or Union [b][u]or even send him off. Coaches can be sentaway from the field of play.[/u][/b]

[/quote]

This indeed happened happened to 1 of our other U15's coaches a couple of weeks ago when playing an away game in the u15 cup he was send from the touchline by the ref during the 2nd half after he had previously approached us about complaining about his intepretation of the laws & more specifically the allowing of the home team to constanly infringe but pulling our lads up at the slighest misdemenor causing the afore said coach to get more frustrated & louder as the game went on,.I must add both myself (just passed level 1 ref last season)& the other coach(level 3 ref) are both refs we also found his intepretaions hard to understand but left it till after the game to put forward our points even though it can be difficult to stand on the touchline bitting your tongue so to say.

Madbrad DRFC u15

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Steveo — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:41:52 GMT

I am coaching under 16s this year. My philosophy in regards to referees stems from my A-grade coach (who is also a top local referee). We encourage the kids to not talk to or question the referees calls on the field, and the only one to talk to the ref is the captain. Preferable the captain will not speak to the ref either. I tell the kids that if they hear a whistle they are to get back the 10 metres then find out which way the penalty has gone, that way they have a defensive line set or they are all on side for the ensuing tap or kick. By not pestering the ref or preempting his decisions you stay on his good side and then (hopefully) the 50/50 decisions will go your way more than not.

Thats my 2c worth anyway, keep the ref happy and adjust your play to how he is interpreting things on the day, but NEVER critercise his call.

Cheers

Steveo

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

phyland — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:55:59 GMT

Just had another thought.....

would any coach start sniping at a player who made a mistake? I surely hope not, whatever their age/level.

On the whole, refs will make far fewer mistakes than any player. It is part of what makes sport so exciting!

The fact that the referee's decision is final is what makes rugby great!

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

phyland — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:46:35 GMT

Only yesterday, I was involved in a tournament and my side were subjected to poor refereeing decisions. Basically we had won the game but 3 decisions, all related to tries, cost us AND it was a semi final.

In brief, the first try (ours) was awarded but the touch judge informed the ref it was a knock-on som the ref changed his mind. The second try (ours) was scored in acres of space in the corner with no oppositio anywhere near. THe ref deemed that the ball had been grounded before it had crossed the line - IT HADN'T. The final try (theirs) was awarded AFTER my side had clearly touched the ball down and they then jumped on the ball.

As a result, we lost 1-0 directly as a result of poor refereeing. What did I do about it when these things happened? NOTHING! I am a referee and I think the guy made an awful mistake (or 3) but I truly believe that there was no intent in his actions.

The referees decision HAS to be final and that is that - we cannot question the referees decisions.

After the game, I thanked him for refereeing and told him that I disagreed with his judements but would accept them. He asked me to be more specific and I informed him to follow this advice -

If he can make a decision, then make it and do not be swayed by anyone - even the touch judge.

If a decision is difficult, then ask for clarity - check with touch judges and een coaches. The coaches will probably disagree but then you can sa that if they did not both see the same thing, how can he be expected to call it correctly. In these circumstances explain that you will ALWAYS go with the attacking sidemif there is any doubt.

Of course, you canot do this is every decision but key ones like tries are important - the coaches cannot argue if they have at least been consulted. In important games, I have even told the coaches that I will look for theoir input in the type of decisions where TMO would be involved at the top level.

I have done this for a while now and SOME coaches now accept that I always make decisions based upon what I see and will NEVER change my mind. A few have spoken positively about this approach.

In fact, there have been times when a coach has agreed that a try was not scored by his team when I have been close to awarding it - Very few coaches are bad and most are very supportive :P

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Duncan Parker — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 20:44:04 GMT

I became a ref earlier this year in order that I could ref the U7 & U8 games at my club where I am also a coach.

Having been a marshall at a tournament last year I found that there weren't enough referees, or coaches willing to offer themselves as a referee to make the tournament run smoothly.

Although now qualified and a member of my local society, I don't want to move up to a higher age group level. I want to make sure that my club has a good referee willing to ensure that games are played within a good atmosphere and I get some very satisfying feedback as I let the players enjoy the game whilst I also try to explain every decision as I go.

I am loud enough in all of my calling so that the players, coaches and parents know what is going on. And so far I have had no issues and many thanks from all involved and I'm sure it's because I have been willing to concentrate on what is required for the players to get the most out of the games rather than the coaches, parents or me.

It has been said before that we do need more people to get involved and unfortunately the "old and bold" players of years ago (and I do fall into that category) aren't always the best without a substantial change in their attitude or their way of thinking.

However to get back to the topic, if you don't like what the ref is doing have a word at halftime but do it in the right way, and then be honest with yourselves, if he wasn't there would you be willing to do it?

Is he a bad referee and no one has told him so? Or is he a good referee who is having a bad day? And are you the "ultimate & perfect" coach?

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

didds — Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:53:11 GMT

[quote]With practically every other team sport looking at rugby as the benchmark for solid behaviour and respect, I think we have to set the standard.[/quote]

Toby is spot on here, but his words reminded me of domething I heard on the Radio 4 "Today" program yesterday (!) - there is a scheme taking cricket into schools to demonstrate the cocepts of respect and decent behaviour...

WRT to the ref thing, well I can only speak regarding the little i know of reffing in England but the general sitiuation is that society refs rarely referee junior matches because there just isn;pt enough of them. The older age groups _may_ et society refs if they are lucky, but at the continuum levels and early youth years the vast majority of refs are club coaches and other club volunteers, who may have varying levels of refereeing education.

Requiring scorecard type reporting and having a system of evaluating refs is is all well and good, but I fail to see how it would work if the vast majoruty of refereees at the younger age groups operate as best effort one man bands.

Could be of course that other NGBs have a different system, but I suspect that at these youinger levels any requirement on people to take more educvation and improvement on board as a volunteer would end up with them walking away. Its not an ideal situation and I am not for one moment suggesting that we just HAVE to put up with it but until there are sufficient volunteer referees that WANT to ref for reffing's sake, be non aligned to any club (ie they'll be reffing all sorts of clubs all over their CB) and have an interest in their own refereeing development, any such measures are doomed to failure.

didds

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Toby — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:41:15 GMT

With practically every other team sport looking at rugby as the benchmark for solid behaviour and respect, I think we have to set the standard.

Right or wrong he or she is the ref, applying the Laws. Right or wrong you abide by their decisions, whether player, parent, fan or coach.

As Didds says, it's one of the most valuable life lessons, because everyone ALWAYS thinks they're more sinned against than sinner. That's life. Get on with the game.

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

DanC — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 21:10:12 GMT

A scorecard can work if everyone buys into the scheme. The scorecard is also a two way process.

Problems often arise at lower levels that one coach is effectively marking another coach on his refereeing skills, and the other coach who reffed on the coaching skills. I can see all sorts of misunderstandings arising from a written record.

Again, we need to take this in context of the games we play...up to U10 the ref is a guider and helps the players understand the laws as well ensure safe play. In which case the coaches on both teams are supporting each other and therefore a card system would not be appropriate. At U12 and above, where there are cups (in the WRU) then this would be more appropriate on a weekly basis.

Tournaments, where there are neutral referees, might have more recourse to cards.

Perhaps we could have cards for all the stakeholders. I have witnessed some pretty poor behaviour over the seasons from parents and other coaches, and this might be useful as well!

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

PAULA — Tue, 14 Oct 2008 18:07:27 GMT

I AGREE WITH THE FERRET. EXAMPLE IS ALL IMPORTANT. COACHES, PARENTS, SENIOR PLAYERS AND.... LET'S NOT FORGET, REF'S ALSO.

DISTRICTS THAT FEEL ON BLANCE THAT THEY HAVE POOR REF'S MUST ACT. THE OPTIONS ON HOW TO DO THIS ARE CLEARLY DOWN TO THEM. THE ROUTE PROBLEM IS THAT THERE IS NO RECOURSE TO THE REF AND NO FORMAL MEANS OF EVALUATING POOR REF'S (AND GOOD ONES TOO).

A SCORECARD MUTUALLY AGREED BY ALL CLUBS WOULD BE A START AS THIS WILL SHOW LONG TERM TRENDS FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES.

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Ferret — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:47:36 GMT

Thought I had posted my last on this topic ... but had to say how I agree with what didds has said, very eloquently put as well.

I am very very conscious of my position of responsibility to my boys and their parents, to be a positive role model and to be aware that my influence may well extend far beyond the game itself. Our players are from all walks of life and some have difficult home circumstances. It's not their fault but some do lack positive male role models.

You have to earn their respect and a coach who doesn't stand up for his team won't keep it; but there are ways of doing that which set them a good example of how to deal with conflict, how to speak civilly to someone who doesn't agree with you, and let's face it, how to deal with unfair situations and outcomes, because life is full of those.

It's all part of the job!!:) Ferret

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

didds — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:11:23 GMT

[quote] It is a mature response that counts, especially when we are dealing with young players.[/quote]

Absolutely Dan. Spot on.

As coaches it is possibly easy to forget, or even be ignorant of the fact that whether we intend to or not, we are very possibly role models to the young players that we coach. Our actions, deeds and words may well be influential in their personal development in the same way that other adults that feature in their lives are - teachers, parents etc. It may well be not just the physical aspects of rugby that we are teaching them - behavioural patterns, social interaction and wider "life skills" may be being passed on also.

My wife coaches U7 and U8 tag ... and one of her outcomes for her players is to look people in the eyes and smile when shaking hands (as opposed to looking at the floor!). Rugby skill? - not per se. Life skill? - absolutely! Important - definitely! (in our opinion - natch!)

In summary - you MIGHT be the only person (maybe) in a young persons life showing them a positive, respectful and decent demeanour. You might be the one that makes a difference to them.
And if you are not the only person... how lucky is that player then to have more than one person helping them mature into a decent, sociable and respectful human being.

didds

didds

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

DanC — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 09:45:06 GMT

Paul

Thanks for your comments. As you might be aware I have been involved in the Parent Abuse campaign quite a lot in the last few months, with articles in the Ospreys programme, and interviews on national TV and radio. The blog entry of a few weeks ago (http://www.rugby-coaching-blog.com has generated over 4,000 hits and hence I thought it was appropriate to highlight one of the incidents from that weekend and bring it into the forum (at the suggestion of the publishers). For obvious reasons I cannot state which team or coach was involved on the web.

It will ever be thus that mini and midi refereeing will be inconsistent. It is unusual that the referee has done more than a weekend on a referees’ course and they are rarely reviewed. My team is lucky that it has over 50 years of teaching experience behind it and the consequent culture of understanding how to promote good learning in children. It would be rare to be accused of bias let alone incompetency. In fact, I find my parents tend to bemoan the lack of favour towards our own team! It is from this position that we know that we have to bite our lips in the face of poor decisions and last season, some pretty poor behaviour by the referees.

Having consulted widely across the NGBs in the last few months, the overriding conclusion is that the focus remains on the coaches setting high standards first and foremost, even in the face of poor refereeing. We would all agree with that, and want to ensure that good behaviour comes from the key influencers.

In terms of the refereeing standards, then any initiative that helps referees improve must be good. When I used referees for school and district matches, we filled out cards for the referees and of course they filled out cards for us, and passed them to the county.

I shall follow the developments with interest. However it will still be the case that, like it or not, all referees at all levels will make mistakes. It is a mature response that counts, especially when we are dealing with young players.

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

PAULA — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 09:42:51 GMT

MOST OF THE PROBLEM WITH REF'S IS NOT THE NEUTRAL REF'S. IT IS WITH CLUB REF'S (MAINLY U7-U11) WHERE THE TEAM COACH OR ASSISTANT WILL OFTEN STEP-IN.

SADLY, THE BIAS COMES WITH IT. IF WE AS A RUGBY COMMUNITY DO NOT SET OUT THE LAWS TO ALL PLAYERS AND ABIDE BY THEM STRICTLY AND IMPARTIALLY THEN PLAYER DEVELOPMENT SUFFERS AS CLEARLY INDISCIPLINE SETS IN WHEN A TEAM GETS AWAY WITH CONSTANT INFRINGEMENTS. HOW CAN A PLAYER DEVELOP PROPERLY WHEN HE/SHE IS BEING ALLOWED TO INFRINGE IN A MATCH SITUATION.

SOME CLUB REF'S ALLOW INFRINGEMENTS AS THEY REALISE THAT THEIR TEAM (FROM TRAINING SESSIONS) MAY NOT BE DISCIPLINED OR SKILLED IN CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE GAME AND CONSEQUENTLY THE BIAS/SLACKNESS IN LAW INTERPRETATION COMES IN, AND THIS IS OFTEN TO THE DISADVANTAGE OF THE OPPONENTS THAT, MAY THEMSELVES BE DISCIPLINED.

THEN WE HAVE THE ISSUE OF SAFETY AS WELL. IF YOU LET HIGH TACKLES GO UN PENALISED THEN SOONER OR LATER THIS BECOMES 2ND NATURE TO THE PLAYER AND MORE SERIOUS PROBLEMS MAY ENSUE.

PAUL

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

turbo — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:16:26 GMT

Just a quick one on refs (and I am one, well one that stands on the pitch anyway). Speaking from experience most of the comments are just banter and a quick retort usually brings a raised hand of apology coupled with a wry smile. However, I have been subjected to some serious abuse from a coach which was quickly followed by the parents and subs. Whilst I didn't feel threatened (I am my own worst critic) i was dissapointed and approached the coach after the game only to be told to "F" off. Not wishing to push the issue I left well alone, the other coach congratulated me on my game (losing Coach I hasten to add).

Forgot to mention this was an U12's game and I was a neutral ref.

Whether we like it or not there will be good ref's and bad ref's, but very few of whom deliberately go out to tuck someone else up. We all make mistakes and unless you are willing to do it yourself then please don't publicly criticise, but please do raise issues in an appropriate manner, as thats how we all learn, is it not... by making mistakes.

Before I finish, only 2 weeks ago out of 25 2nd team games in our district only 15 could go ahead because of referee shortage. Without someone in the middle there is no game....:w00t:

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Ferret — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:37:29 GMT

I have received a private message referencing this post and my comments in it ... it was anonymous so I can't reply to it directly ... so this is my reply. Neither was I able to ask for permission to repeat the questions here, but I am going to, because without them, the answers don't make sense.

I was asked:

WHAT IS THE MOST APPALLING OF THE TWO IN YOUR OPINION; INCOMPETENT OR BIASED REFEREEING OR A COACH ATTEMTING TO CORRECT A REF WHEN THERE ARE ISSUES OF NOT ONLY FAIR PLAY BUT CHILD SAFETY.

My answer: There is nothing "appalling" about a coach attempting to correct a ref "per se". My "appalling" comment related to a coach "sniping" at the ref publicly from the touchline (see Dan's original post). They way to approach the ref is privately, if necessary with the other coach as well. It is not by a shouting match on the touchline.

A key feature of rugby for me and for a lot of my team and their parents is its discipline. Of course there are good and bad referees and even the good ones make mistakes, because they are unsighted, etc. But there has to be a final decision and in rugby it is the ref's. It is key to the game IMO that the referee's decision is respected.

This doesn't mean he can't be spoken to respectfully. It does mean, in my view, that he should not be shouted or sniped at, by coaches or players. If it gets to that, we are no better than soccer. I would not want to be involved in a game like that. A great many of my players are converts from soccer and cite the atmosphere, spirit and discipline of rugby as a reason for the change.

The other question I was asked was:

HOW LONG DO YOU THINK THE 'GAME' WILL LAST IF COACHES/PLAYERS FALL OUT OF THE SYSTEM BECAUSE OF REFEREEING PROBLEMS.

My answer: There has to be a referee. Without him there is no game. At grass roots level there will always be referees who are lacking. it is an amateur game and they have to start somewhere. Of course they can improve but touchline confrontation is not the way. Personally I think that creates a far greater risk that we end up with too few referees.

These are my opinions, I am flattered that someone took the trouble to ask for them, but it is a pity he or she did not do it here in the thread.

Cheers - Ferret

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Red & Black fan — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 09:39:29 GMT

Referee, re: your comment: 'Coaches can be sent away from the field of play' please enlighten me of where this rule/ law is stated? While i am in agreement with you all re; the difficulties of ref'ing & the importance of coaches not making ugly scenes, I think we mustnt forget who we're doing this for- the players!

If you're working with a group of players, regardless of what level, knowing how hard you push them to be their best & the effort & commitment they put into the game & for some of them getting to training, I think there needs to be greater accountability & sanctions on referees for poor officiating. Because one of the MOST heartbreaking things is doing a job with a team, building up their confidence & passion for the game only for an incompetent official to stuff it all up in an hr!

I know the laws because its crucial for me to be able to guide, teach & coach players to play within those parameters. However, I am a CRAP ref & I accept that- which is why I DONT ref! :D This topic is something close to my heart & i have had many running battles with poor ref's over the yrs, including being 'sent off', which I refused to do by the way, hence my question above- as long as i wasnt 'on' the field, he couldnt send me 'off'...he threatened to pull the game if I didnt leave & I then pulled my U13 players off. To cut a long story short, he stopped time, he, the opposition coach (who was in agreement with ME!) and myself had a chat & we ended the game amicably..ish! with the ref blowing the correct interpretation ;)

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Doc Brown — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 00:35:10 GMT

I have just taken on our U13's and set out at the beginning in an email to parents that this sort of thing would not be tolerated. I have had to approach fellow coaches (and parents) in other teams I have been involved in and just ask for a little quiet and respect ''positive comments only please''.

I think a clear head, and letting people know where the line in the sand is at the start is often the best way + a very thick skin.

I only came across it at one other club where we were bullied by their coaches and an unofficial word through higher channels dealt with that, the club were looking for an excuse to discipline him anyway and after that he didn't stay around.

Steve

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

referee — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:26:47 GMT

Thanks for your support Ferrett.

We refs do make mistakes and, I think, we accept that. I must admit i sometimes find refereeing Sunday morning junior matches harder than a Division 2 league match on a Saturday, due to the lack of discipline of players, parents and coaches and lack of understanding of the laws.

Senior teams, coaches etc are aware of the sanctions available to a referee should coaches/supporters go overboard and their implications on the club. However, that awareness, not all clubs admittedly, is not there on a Sunday morning.

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

Ferret — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:53:55 GMT

I would agree. I don't referee - but the ref plays a crucial part, and sadly part of his job can be to keep coaches in check. For a coach to question the ref's authority is an appalling example to the players. Maybe a respectful word, out of earshot, but sniping ... its just wrong.

Theres nothing worse than losing a game, not because you were outplayed, but because the opposing coach has influenced or bullied the ref. It has to be up to the ref to show that he won't take it and the sooner he does so the better.

And if the coach takes it the wrong way ... well there are plenty of people like that around. Few people relish confrontation especially in what is after all a leisure activity - but sometimes we have to do things we don't like. We are here so our boys and girls can play, learn and enjoy after all.

I'm very grateful to all refs, they do a tricky job and without them there would be no game, so I'm always slow to criticize them ... even when they are wrong!:)

Cheers - Ferret

RE: Dealing with a rude coach

referee — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:10:49 GMT

It's not always easy, but i've found that if i speak to a coach early in the game and politely ask him to stop shouting every time i make a decision it usually stops them.

I try to explain that it doesn't help the referee or his players by continually shouting at me. By getting in early, so to speak, it can prevent it becoming worse.

If it continues and/or becomes worse maybe you need to stop the game and warn him that if he continues in that manner you could report his behaviour as a ''code of conduct'' to the District Society or Union or even send him off. Coaches can be sent away from the field of play.

This is a last resort but if it's not dealt with the guy in the middle next week may have to put up with worse again from this guy.

If you go to referee meetings raise it with the other referee's and ask how they handle these situatiions. Who know's you may find out other referee's know of the coaches behaviour.

Dealing with a rude coach

DanC — Mon, 29 Sep 2008 09:34:14 GMT

A good friend of mine refereed this weekend a youngsters' match in a non-league friendly.

The opposing coach was constant sniping and said some unhelpful comments throughout the game. You could see the parents of this coach's side getting worked up with him.

He was asked to be quiet, but took it in the wrong spirit.

How do you deal with this?