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RE: How does up and In work??

didds — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 13:27:34 GMT

cjp - far more elequently put than I :-)

that's what I meant fr the record :-)

didds

RE: How does up and In work??

cjp — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:48:07 GMT

Sorry for the confusion! Up and in is about stopping the ball moving wide. Defense pressing up quick, often with the wider defenders on the press pushing up a bit further. Defense looking to be somewhat outside their opposite man (in RL sometimes the wingers look to get up and inside their winger to prevent the pass going to him). That is the up bit. The in bit is not a collective shift inwards. Just the player or players who are to make the tackle angle in towards the ball carrier looking to make an inside shoulder tackle. The cue to angle in is the movement of the ball. When you see that your man is the next receiver and will be in range, angle in.

The moving out bit relates to defenders whose opposite man has already passed. For example, if the first and second receivers make their passes pre-line, at such a distance that their respective defenders are not in range to make the tackle, the respective defenders should press outwards, holding their shape etc. in a similar way to up and out. This way the line congests around the ball and inside balls etc are covered. Thus players are reacting to the movement of the ball. Hopefully in this scenario, the defense have moved up swiftly enough and defender 3 comes in to hit the third receiver.

RE: How does up and In work??

didds — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:48:36 GMT

I think cjp means that yes up and in is designed to constrin the movement of the ball wide.

However - and I think this is his point - if that plan fails conrinuing to push "in" will just create even more space out wide.

I too am a little confused however about pushing "out" once the ball is passed. I think it might mean by following the ball that defender (being the nearest to the ball on the inside now) covers the "eventual" step back inside . with the forwards indeed creating traffic in the areas just left. basically someone has to make the tackle oif the attacker steps inside rather than just takes the tackle on his outside.

didds

RE: How does up and In work??

JBUS_rugby — Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:09:08 GMT

That's great, but confuses me a bit...I thoght that part of the point of up/in was to prevent movement wide and should the ball be pushed wide, to force the ball back inside. Surely if inside defenders move out if the ball is past them, this creates gaps inside? Or are these gaps filled by forwards? Or have I missed the boat completely??

RE: How does up and In work??

cjp — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:06:39 GMT

Just to add to Didds' wise words - a few things to consider with up and in. The golden rule is that nothing gets round the outside. Line speed is key as Didds notes. One might consider having wider players push slightly further forwards creating a slight umbrella. Once the ball passes a player, press out. The in part of up and in refers to where the tackle comes from. Not much point in continuing to press in when the ball is moving out beyond you! The ball is the point of reference - when pressing forward the shape of the defence line will congest around the ball carrier to stop the progress & the defenders not directly involved in the tackle would be sitting just off the tackle in a ready-state for off-loads or ready to join the defensive ruck. If you make the ball the cue then your side will be operating at the most important thing on the field - possession. Go forward & react from the position of the ball - up & in, up & out.

Having a plan B is also a good idea. If the ball goes past a certain point, switching to up and out for example. Up and in gets messy if a team shift the ball fast and get outside you. Whatever system you use, it is important to make sure that all players understand and can operate the system and that all can make good one on one tackles. No defensive system works if tackles are missed.

RE: How does up and In work??

didds — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:11:36 GMT

[quote][b]JBUS_rugby (27/08/2008)[/b][hr]So, the forwards are doing what at this point?? I guess the back row are joining in quite wide to act as support, whereas us salad dodgers are hanging about closer to create what was decribed to me as "the Kill Zone" !![/quote]

As the backs are pushing the ball carrier back towards the breakdown/restart, the forwards are eating whoever arrives for tea :-)

The back row are aiming INSIDE the ball as that is where the BC will come from ie back towards them. Because of the outside shoulder overload danger, somebody could be identified to sweep just outside the ball (scrum-half?). The big boys will just turn up when they are ready as usual :-).

BSW can also cover across following the line of the ball (but beware the wiper kick into the undefended space) and the FB can also track outside the ball (with the BSW covering his territory in effect)

As you identified earlier, this defense bolsters a slower pack as they have less far to run to defend the next breakdown - when it works. But the backline needs to have good line speed, good 1st up tackling and total belief in the man outside him to cover his outside shoulder.

didds

RE: How does up and In work??

JBUS_rugby — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:53:02 GMT

So, the forwards are doing what at this point?? I guess the back row are joining in quite wide to act as support, whereas us salad dodgers are hanging about closer to create what was decribed to me as "the Kill Zone" !!

RE: How does up and In work??

Steve Bate — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:01:56 GMT

[quote][b]didds (27/08/2008)[/b][hr]because players are certainly more sued
didds[/quote]

Rugby now becomes more litigious :hehe::hehe:

Great explanation tho'!!

RE: How does up and In work??

didds — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:25:29 GMT

what i was taught is...

defenders line up halkfway outside their opposite number. ie #10 lines up in the gap between oppo #10 and #12 etc.

Line speed is important to close the space (up), and the tackle comes in from the attacker's blind side (in). In effect you are showing the attacker an empty corridor, but their attention is taken up at some stage with watching the ball arrive, which is when the impact of the tackle is greatest. Scanning attackers will be aware that you are on their blind hip and this can work to your advantage as they make calls to remove themself from the firing line (miss-passes etc). The offset alignment also offers options for interception (watch South Africa for the year or so leading up to the last RWC especially) and a spot blitz at #13 can be very sucessful in this regard.

The dangers of up and in is that if you miss the tackle there is generally a big gap to be exploited, and overloads on the open side of the attacker (BSW or 15?) can finesse the strategy. It takes a great deal of trust by a defending side because basically every defender has to leave any attack on their open shoulder to his teammate one out from him.

Drift, or even, up and out, is "easier" conceptually I find because players are certainly more sued to it, but because they can indeed "drift" along with it if things get sticky. Up and In HAS to be dynamic and aggressive but can be devastating.

HTH :-)

didds

How does up and In work??

JBUS_rugby — Tue, 26 Aug 2008 15:32:08 GMT

I play for Bedford Athletic. Don't get excited...I'm firmly in the thirds.

We have a large and quite immobile pack, so the backs prepensity to spin the ball wide at any given opportunity is quite annoying as we cannot effectivly support them. I want to reccomend an Up and In defense, as it seems better suited to us. I sort of know how it works-defenders line up one out from their opposite number , and move up then in to prevent the ball going too wide. However, thats about it. Can some one provide, or give me a link for, a clear description of up/in that I can use to convinnce the lads to give it a go?? Pictures and/or videos would be nice..