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RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Wed, 22 Aug 2007 15:27:25 GMT

Frenchy,

That is most interesting. There is so much we can learn from sports like judo. Actually, elsewhere on this forum Philip Copeman recommends martial arts training as a useful adjunct to rugby. Judo would fit the bill very well. To find the nearest judo club...

I have read that wrestling coaches have been used in Australian RL and have brought similar insights and recently some controversy with the "grapple tackle" issue which has been getting much attention over there - effectivley tacklers grabbing the BC around the head and neck as part of the effort to subdue him. Clearly dangerous. Putting an arm bar on a player in a tackle is not what the game is about.

Another area I have been reading up on is what goes on in Gridiron offensive and defensive lines. As we all know the defensive lineman's mission in life is to fight through a wall of blockers and grab the ball carrier (be he a running back or quarter back). The offensive lineman's job is to stop them. It all gets pretty complex and sophisticated pretty quickly - they have raised these things almost to an art form. Still, the situation we find ourselves in at the ruck is not dissimilar. Defenders trying to get to the ball, attackers trying to clear them out, prevent them getting to the ball etc. The way they go about the blocking and getting past the blocks ("block shedding") is interesting. The detail with which it has been worked out is impressive. I am sure there is a lot we could learn from there too.

Sure there are differences - in rugby there are far less restrictions on blockers than there are in gridiron, that is where the judo comes in! One cannot do that in gridiron. I need to find a friendly gridiron coach - it is all very well reading about a drive block, a hook block or a shoulder club - one really needs to see them demonstrated.

Actually, whilst on the subject of gridiron, we are seeing closer attention to stances coming into rugby, for example in ruck defence where 4, 3 and ("linebacker") 2 point stances are coming in. It is well worth looking closely at how these are done in gridiron - one needs coaching manuals and/or coaches. They are very particular about them as getting them even slightly wrong can cause all sorts of problems for the defender. Best to go to the source, gridiron - left to our own devices we are unlikley to get them right!

RE: Tackling Technique

Frenchy — Mon, 20 Aug 2007 16:30:33 GMT

cip,

Yip. What we're doing is to work hard at the breakdown that as a minmum we slow down their ball and disrupt the scrum half getting into his clearing pass position.We never go for the legs of the protecting player until we've got our arm under his chest, then the Judo throw we call 'dig' allows us to get his centre of gravity higher and we put him back over his own ball and this hinders the scrum half.This helps to get us in a good counter rucking position and as we drive over the ball we are very vocal to let the ref know we're positively trying to win the ball.

This guy has been a breath of fresh air to us, and to be honest, some of the stuff he's doing is pretty obvious once you see it. The players appreciate his view (particularly when he can demonstrate throwing our big guys at ease and they wonder how he did it) but rather than 'smash' the ruck (which is still a valid option) we're giving the players options which might be better suited for their physique.

The more he makes the coaches understand how we can apply these techniques, the more we've taken our core competence drills and added little adaptations to use them.

The other thing he's reinforced is a 'determined to win' attitude. For a Judo guy, assessing the opposition and probing for weaknesses and exploiting them with your own are of strength as part of their make up. They're always looking to see how they can overcome and win and that's what comes across in the sessions.

regards,

Frenchy

RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Mon, 13 Aug 2007 16:00:48 GMT

Frenchy,

Very interesting what you say about the Judo coach. One sees league players throwing the tackler to the ground with what look, to the uninitiated, like something that might have come from Judo having held him up for a bit to gain some time.

I can imagine that such techniques could be useful for putting down the big player who is looking to start a maul. Is that one of your uses for those techniques?

RE: Tackling Technique

Frenchy — Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:33:50 GMT

We all know there are so many types of tackle in RU.

It's a science of it's own.

Our club have worked hard to establish various tackle types, what decisions need made prior to selecting the optimum tackle for your team at that moment in the match, what needs to happen throughout the tackle process, what to do on completing the tackle if you have won or have not won the ball.

We have also brought in a Judo coach to give the guys various strategies at tackle time (sometimes called turnover time.)

Some thoughts;

Every team has their preferred defensive system, well documented on this site and very helpful, but the one on one is the building block of the system.

The main priority I look for in this area is a sustained well organised defence that has pressure, width and depth. Eventually the correct choice and execution of a one on one tackle will result in loss of possession.

Within these systems some basic tackle types are found and some examples below;

Head On (rush up system - stop passing movement from going wide)

Side on (Up and out - stop wide ball carrier)

Drive Back (Pillars & Guards around the ruck)

For Head On we want to 'Track' the BC and execute the classis RL tackle described earlier.

As this tackle is succesfully made, we want the closest team mate in on the ball for turnover.The turnover guy is shouting 'Turnover' to let the ref and team mates know he's on the ball, we look at the tackle as the start of our attack.So getting the BC on his back with ball on top is best.

For side on, we want to stop and offload so we get hip to hip and as we scrag him down we slide over, getting to our feet and go for the ball.Again, he's shouting 'Turnover'. Here we want the BC to place the ball away from his body, other wise he gets penalised, but this also helps us get the ball.

For the drive back, we want to keep the ball close to the BC's body to slow down the ball and reduce the effectiveness of thier close pick and drive.Eventually, it slows down the forward momentum. We're not looking for a turnover here, but want the ball to go to the backs where our defensive system has set a trap waiting for the ball.

So Let's say from a set piece, the attack can move across the pitch - we press forward (Head on) - they get it wide (Side On) - they recycle a ruck (Drive Back) - the come back across the pitch (Head on) - they get it wide - and so on. Patience and good execution is needed one on one in each of these scenarios.

Most of our tackle drills feature these different types and some start with a defensive scenario and transition into an attack scenario from a turnover. Our thinking is that defensive systems are weak when aligned for attack.

We've copied a lot from RL as they specialise in the tackle, but RU plays on so where the ball ends up is absolutely vital. Knowing this has led to a deeper undertstanding of what we need to do when we're tackled and what's best for the team in retaining possession.

With set piece being fairly even these days, we coaches need to have this area as a core competence in the team in order to a) have a sustained defence and b) a sustained attack.

The topic on coaching resources shows lots of websites to find defensive drills etc.

RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Wed, 04 Jul 2007 13:21:57 GMT

Actually, Graham Henry advises the tackler to end up on top of the BC. See http://www.rugbysmart.co.nz/plan/technique.html#

RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:15:54 GMT

A case of the 11th Commandment "Thou shalt not get found out."

The way RL players operate in this area can be instructive if you are looking to "flex" things to your advantage. Using the BC to push up off (having of course made sure he is on his back) as mentioned. Also they try to slip a hand between the ball and the BC's body or even just inside the BC's arms. Not trying to hold the ball or pull it free but as the tackler disentangles himself and stands up, the removal of the hand can cause the ball to bobble loose. If skillfully done it can look like a fumble. In RU terms just the presence of that hand close to the ball could just cause the BC to hang on a bit too long for the ref's liking or prevent him placing the ball back. Nothing as unsubtle as grabbing an arm or the ball.

Don't think that the tackler has it all his way, the BC in league can sometimes get a hold of the front of the tackler's jersey holding him down onto him an win a holding down penalty. That with plenty of thrashing as though trying to get up can con the ref. In RU refs seem to ping BCs for holding on more then tacklers for holding them down, so may be less effective but would depend on the ref on the day. For the poor ref these things are a 50/50 call a lot of the time.

Naughty? Yes but it is all about playing to the ref's interpretation of the rules on that day. What team would not creep a bit offside if the ref was not calling it? It's just the way it is.

RE: Tackling Technique

Scrumsrus — Sat, 30 Jun 2007 00:33:43 GMT

[quote][b]sparky (28/06/2007)[/b][hr]If you use the tacklee (BC) to get back on your feet, is that classed as not releasing the taclee? I first noticed George Smith doing it some years ago and then the AB's seemed to take up the 'practice'. I've often thought it unfair.[/quote]

I've been coaching this for almost 15 years and I can count the number of times one of my players have been "Pinged" for it on one hand. In all honesty you are probably correct, but I have two points of contention:

The Tackler has released the ball carrier and is fulfilling his duty, which is to get to his feet, once he has done so he can rejoin the game. The fact that the most convenient place to put his hands when getting back to his feet is on his opponent is unfortunate. :w00t:
Secondly play the whistle, if the ref doesn't blow then it's ok in his eyes and you will win more turnover ball. ;)

I seek a way to gain an advantage occasionally that takes me to the edge of the Law and this is one of those cases, but it is important that the players know what they are trying to achieve in every aspect of the game. This is best achieved by the coach analyzing every part of the game, clearly defining their objectives of each phase and developing techniques to achieve those objectives. The final part of the coaches role in this is to sell this to his players and provide exercises so that the players are comfortable with the techniques necessary to achieve the objectives.

RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:52:17 GMT

Sorry, should have put the link in properly

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz0_An6RH5k&NR=1][/url]

RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:51:24 GMT

I dunno about lasses on a crash mat but watch this everyone, you'll love it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz0_An6RH5k&NR=1

Watch those league guys hit!

RE: Tackling Technique

Toby — Fri, 29 Jun 2007 15:07:07 GMT

I found this interesting session on You Tube. In my view it shows how to coach basic tackling well to younger and inexperienced players. It tells the players what to do and why they should do it that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3dBpmo9nEo

The clip fits with some of our attempts to describe basic tackling. Notably, "eyes, shoulders, arms":

Eyes: The tackler must stay focussed on the target, with eyes open through the contact.
Shoulder: The tackler's shoulder must make the first point of contact with the ball carrier.
Arms: The tackler's arms must wrap around the target and lock the two players together.

RE: Tackling Technique

sparky — Thu, 28 Jun 2007 09:54:54 GMT

If you use the tacklee (BC) to get back on your feet, is that classed as not releasing the taclee? I first noticed George Smith doing it some years ago and then the AB's seemed to take up the 'practice'. I've often thought it unfair.

RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:08:10 GMT

I guess the point is that from some positions it will be easier for the tackler to manipulate the situation to his/his teams advantage - and hopefully win the ball, than from others. A key point is for the tackler to be able to get to his feet very fast and so be able to play the ball. The tackler likewise. If the BC is on his back he will be slower up than a tackler who is on his front on top of him. In close quarters, getting the man turned may be all one can do.

RE: Tackling Technique

Walsallwizard — Wed, 27 Jun 2007 00:27:38 GMT

Making an assumption that the players can make a tackle, my aims when coaching tackling are very simple and I ask the players the following questions which all start with the same line "tell me how you would....1: Stop the forward momentum of the ball carrier 2: Bring the ball carrier to ground if possible 3: Get your body between the opposition and the ball 4:Gain possession of the ball?"
I have found introducing this into coaching tackling makes the players think and problem solve for themselves, the position of the Ball Carrier and the Tackler is totally irrelevant at the point of contact it is which team wins the ball from the situation

Oh and the answer to the questions I ask my Players are 1: Get into the right position to make a tackle 2: use a tackle and or the ball carriers momentum against him 3: Turn the ball carrier towards my team mates 4: get back on my feet before my opponent (usually leaning on him to help themselves up) and take the ball off him

RE: Tackling Technique

Scrumsrus — Tue, 26 Jun 2007 02:47:15 GMT

To my mind there are several situations involved here and therefore several answers to the question.

Aggressive "Low to High" tackle.

I like my tackler to land on top of the BC in the "Missionary" position (Great phrase for adults, but leave it out with the kids), the BC should have his head towards his own posts and be on his back. The tackler should then place his hands on the BC & ball if possible, and use him to get up pushing the BC into the ground preventing him from moving. As soon as the tackler has regained his feet he should get his hands onto the ball to strip it away from the BC. A frequent outcome is a penalty against the BC for failure to release the ball even though he has had precious little time to do so.

2. Passive "Judo Throw" type tackle.

I prefer to use this close to set piece, Rucks & Mauls. By "Throwing" the BC over, so that he lands with his back his own side and with the ball exposed to our players giving us the best opportunity to regain possession.

3. The Chase tackle.

When everything has gone awry and the BC has broken through the Tackle line, and the tackler is approaching the BC from the rear. Here I like my players to try to get a hand onto the ball or to the BC's wrist during the tackle to strip the ball free or pull one hand free of the ball. By doing this there is a high chance of the ball carrier will spill the ball in the tackle or in contact with the ground either way the referee will view this as a knock on. Therefore if we can't regain possession and gain an advantage at least we will have the scrum feed.

I have always believed that the objective of the tackle is not to put the BC on the ground, nor is it to stop / slow the momentum of the attack, but instead it is to regain possession of the ball and mount a counter attack. This is what I try to coach.

RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:42:34 GMT

Hi Tight 5,

It sounds like you have done some good work there.

For me, the lack of information on and lack of attention paid to the issue is deeply concerning. It reeks of amateurism (and not the good Corinthian kind). Establishing the desired outcomes from a tackle is essential if any sort of coherent tackling technique is to be developed. Tackling is such a fundamental skill. These things just have to be got right and got right with the juniors, right from the word go, when they first start on contact rugby. This is what happens in league, the kids are taught to tackle very well and to get the BC onto his back with them on top.

Looking at this specific issue, I would be interested to learn what your sessions found out. Personally, I am drawn (theoretically) to a league type finish as described above given that the BCs seem to like to either get onto their sides, body in front of ball to present it or on knees and elbows, squeeze ball style. Do what your opponent least wants you to... The tackler needs to prevent a pass off the ground (never sure when that is allowed - when the ref says so seems to be the way as with so much of the confusing and often contradictory rules in the game!). A tackler with eyes open, hitting the area just above the belt line and finshing on top should be well placed to pin the arms and stop the ball being promoted. (Actually, talking of pinning the arms, I saw a great shot of Brent Tate, mid-ball-and-all tackle, ball carrier off the ground, reaching to pull in the arm the BC was putting out to break his fall. A nice, if somewhat brutal touch, to make sure maximum damage was done!)

From there the tackler spins round very fast (league style), holding the BC down (in so far as one can get away with that) regains feet and strips the ball. Feel free to shoot that down, it is entirely untested but we need to start somewhere in working out how to "win the ground" as the leaguies would put it. Doesn't look like anyone else is doing it and this info needs to be in every junior club and school in the land if things are to improve.

Chris

RE: Tackling Technique

Tight 5 — Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:44:16 GMT

Chris

You are spot on when you say little attention is payed to the tackler & their position post tackle.

I have just completed an assessment to become a coach as part of the new Schools of rugby set-up. The assessment was to provide a 20 minute session for 10 players with the aim of contesting the the ball in the tackle by the tackler.

It took me approx 20 hours work to prepare this session, most which was adapted from parts of other drills, & simple biomechanics drills to players back to their feet quickly & with awareness of their surroundings (ball/opposition/support etc). I also included a decision making scenario to make the players thinks about their actions.

I was prasied by my assessor on the detailed (in identifying problems & solutions), but simple drills on a very difficult area to coach.

There is little or no information on any coaching wwebsite from the RFU, or books, that help in preparing tackling players for the post tackle situation. But as the All Blacks show, it can be a highly effective way of turning the ball over in what are mostly open play situations, thus giving good opportunity for counter attacks.

Would be interested in your comments.

RE: Tackling Technique

cjp — Tue, 19 Jun 2007 11:49:49 GMT

Hi Tight 5,

I know what you are saying, in neither game is the tackler just allowed to hang on to the BC - holding down penalites are not uncommon in RL.

What I am driving at is, given the rules and situations of RU (and leaving RL out of it - I used the league thing just as an example as they are pretty clear cut about what they are trying to achieve) there will be positions that the BC and tackler end up in that are more advantageous for one side or the other. Even if it is just that one is better placed to regain his feet and play the ball than the other. If one knows and understands those positions one is better placed to manipulate the tackle situation to the best advantage for one's team, either in attack or defense. It seems to me that rather more thought has been given to what the BC does than the tackler. Attention is paid to ball presentation etc. I, personally, have not come across similar attention being paid to what the tackler should do (bar getting his man down). Someone must have developed a theory on it - the game cannot be that naive, it's been professional for a while now.

Chris

RE: Tackling Technique

Tight 5 — Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:36:14 GMT

Chris

There are some major differences between RL & RU at the tackle area.

In RU the Laws of the game state that a tackler must release the tackled player(BC) at the tackle when on the ground.

The tackler & BC must also get to their feet before playing the ball.

The tackled player must also release the ball when tackled to ground, although they can present the ball, or pass the ball if it is an immediate action.

In RL the tackle is a defined end to a phase of play, set number of tackles per teams possession phase. In RU the tackle can be part of a continuous flow of play, which could involve an unlimited amount of tackles & is therefore a more dynamic/fluid situation than in RL.

Admittedly there are some aspects of the actual tackle that RL is much better equipped than RU, but the post tackle area is very much different at all aspects between RL & RU.

Tackling Technique

cjp — Fri, 15 Jun 2007 10:44:39 GMT

Dear All,

In Rugby League the aim is to get the ball carrier (BC) onto his back to help slow the play-the-ball (PTB), as I am sure you know. There being 4 movements required by the BC to get from his back to having the ball in play (roll onto front, snap knees to chest, sweep leg round, stand PTB). Combined with a good peel (spare man off first, then the tackler on the legs, then the tackler on the upper body) this can really slow the PTB with obvious advantages for the defenders. Tackling technique for all the different tackles, front (blocking, drive & ball-and-all), side and rear tackles is geared towards achieving this end - tackler on top, BC on back.

In RU has anyone given consideration to the issue of where we want the BC to end up beyond just driving them back? What outcomes are the defense looking to achieve beyond stopping the BC? In what position do the defense have the best chance of forcing a turnover, slowing the recycling? BC on back, front, side? Head towards own posts, defenders posts? Where do we want the tackler to end up? How do we want the tackler to finish/peel?

Clearly, the principal object of the tackle is to arrest the forward motion of the BC, but if one also has clear objectives as above one can look carefully at technique in the approach phase, but mainly the tackle and finish phases of the tackle to try to achieve the desired outcomes, making the defense more effective.

Your thoughts would be most welcome.

Chris