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Forum Newbie
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| I coach a very committed under19 team without very many special individuals. We have done well against other teams of a similar profile as we have really looked to (and have been successful with) employing a really brutal, in-your-face defence, and being quick and clinical on the ground. This has however blown up in our faces against the quality clubs who relieve the pressure by running a little deeper and possess real pace to beat my boys on the outside. Having anticipated this problem, I had them defend on the opposition's outside shoulder to try to coerce them back inside so that we can smash them and compete for the ball on the ground. This didn't work at all as what ended up happening was that my boys were coming in to defend on an angle on the outside and they were very susceptible to sidesteps and men looping around to the outside. I need ways to either force them back into my stronger defenders or to organise the defence out wide such that it allows us to negate their pace advantage.
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Junior Member
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Hi
You need to add a drift (inside out) defence to your repertoire. The deeper the attack aligns the more effective this will be due to the tendancy of attackers to pass the ball before they have committed the man in front of the thereby allowing them to drift onto the next attacker.
When mastered it results in the ball getting to their outside man with at least 2 and often 3 or more defenders in front of him
The one weakness is when an attacker looks to step back inside against the grain and can wrong foot a defender. Cover this with your back row being responsible for anyone trying to do this
Traditionally Drift has been more effective in lineout situations with the attack being further away from the defence and more likely to run the ball wide but with the ELVS and backlines having to be 5 back form the scrum it is now going to have increased relevance from scrum situations as well i believe
Angus
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 17/11/2008 21:34:53
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An interesting problem, but not insoluble.
1st thought is line speed - the quicker your line can come up the less time for thinking. I understand that Danie Craven said that the denial of thinking time for the attackers was the greatest weopon the defense had. Coming forwards 4 or 5m can change the attackers from playing thoughtful rugby to playing reactive rugby and ceding control of the game to the defense. In RL teams do push up fast to eat into that 10m. How far back can a team drop before they are giving up serious yardage?
What follows are various peices on defensive strategies taken from an RL coaching forum which I hope will contain some useful ideas.
The first deals not only with different strategies but how these might be organised on the field. Changes will need to be made to adapt to union but the priciples are there:
Question - “I’m a fairly new coach and you hear all these other guys talking about slide, umbrella, up and in, up and hold etc, could you spare me 5 mins of your time to explain the pros and cons of each one?” Answer - Depends what age group you are coaching. Most teams don’t need anything as complicated, but more on that at the end.
VARIOUS DEFENSIVE FORMATIONS:
SLIDE - NOW CALLED UP AND OUT - The object is to mark up INSIDE your opponent and slide him towards the sideline, used when you have a small pack of forwards and a very fast back line.
You show the opposition space on the outside and tempt them to use it. When they do, you use your speed and the sideline, you are trying to keep the opposition from coming down the centre and if they do you are packing your forwards closer together to allow them to help each other. Used very successfully by the Canberra Raiders in the late 1980’s.
UP AND IN - Here you have a slower backline, but big strong forwards. You mark up OUTSIDE your man and drive them back into your killing zone where your big forwards can pound them, the winger will actually mark up between his opposite centre and winger and get in between them to deny the ball going out wide. Used by Canterbury Bulldogs.
UMBRELLA - A real throwback to when the defence was only five yards back from the Play The Ball. Not used these days, people tend to think that Up and In is umbrella, but it isn’t, although there are similarities. Warren Ryan used umbrella with the Canterbury Bulldogs, they would rush up on the outside and form a big U shape, channelling everything into the ruck area.
This caused the two Sydney Grand Finals where there were no tries scored and the results (from memory) between Canterbury and Parramatta were 4-2 and 6-2, all goals. After that defences were moved back 10 metres and it became physically impossible to keep rushing up and back for 80 minutes.
Big gang tackles were a feature of this very hurtful defence, it was designed to intimidate teams and it worked, in it’s day.
UP AND HOLD - Now you are starting to get into the late 1990’s, here the teams would perform the Up portion of the UP and In or Up and Out which is to advance the first 3-5 metres very fast and then to slow down and adjust to what the opposition is doing.
So if you are always running a slide defence, then the opposition can put on angles to beat a slide and same with Up and Out, but, Brian Smith when he was with St George developed the Up and Hold defence theory, wait until the opposition had performed all their angles and then tackle the final ball carrier so sometimes you might Up and Out and other times you might Up and In.
Canberra I know toyed with this defence as well. It was good in theory, but I didn’t like it in practice (personal opinion). When I saw it in operation I saw a flat footed defence line against a fast moving attack.
How do you work it? Well you don’t work any of these I would suggest until Under 10’s or Under 11’s.
THE BASICS OF A MODERN DEFENSIVE PATTERN - Start with your two Edge Captains, generally for junior football your half on the right side and your 5/8 (stand off) on the left side. Outside each of these Edge Captains is a Centre and a Winger.
Inside them are 2 forwards. With your marker(s) and fullback, that is pretty much your team. If there is one left over, he fills in on the open side, I don’t know your age group, so I don’t know how many you have on the field.
The Edge Captains jobs are: [1] In the initial attacking forays to get up a bit quicker and try to force the attack back inside, they must ensure that their inside defensive unit is in place and operating. The other edge captain must force his inside defensive unit across to shut the gate.
[2] If the attack goes wide, then the edge captain, switches his focus to his two outside men and works with them on either an Up and In or an Up and Out pattern to shut down the oppositions backline.
All these roles must be drilled and the Edge Captains must be able to control both of their defensive units, inside and outside. By doing this you break up the defensive responsibilities into little groups of 3, which it is possible to control. Bob Wood
From this it can be seen that one can operate both up and in and up and out changing depending on where the ball has got to. As you have found up and in gets messy of the attackers get the ball wide fast. Interesting to note also how young they start on complex defense!
This next exchange deals with spacing in defense (again it's from league so suitable adaptations will need to be made for union):
Spacing In Defence
Hi guys just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on how to coach
spacing! in defence. I'm coaching an U19's side.What principles do I
need to be aware of?How do you defend your space?(esp. when you have
2 att. vs 1 def.)Should the spacing between the men around the ruck
be the same as those out wide? I appreciate any help you can give me
on this topic.
Queztron,
Spacings in defence are often manipulated by the overall width of
your defensive line - so, if you have your widest defenders (probably
wingers) standing on each 20m line (infield - for a play-the-ball in
the middle of the field), then your line compression would be fairly
tight. As you move your boundaries out then so your spacings will
open.
A general rule of thumb would be to have your ABC's (around the
ruck) in tight formation (1/2 - 1m apart) then as the defenders are
placed further out they begin to open their spacings a little wider.
Being tight around the ruck allows you to get numbers into tackles -
control the ruck usually control the game.
A way to defend space is use what we call "lanes" - the space
between two defenders is this lane. The defenders must dictate to the
attacker & push him into this lane & then get two men into the
tackle.
Spacing between defenders is often referred to as shape
(maintaining the straight line is also part of shape), shape must be
maintained as much as possible when pressing forward & resetting back
to get functionality from your defence formation.
Hope this helps,
Rick
Thanks Rick,
Just wondering do all defenders need to be coming up in
a straight line or is it different for different positions? I ask
cause I used to teach my outside men(1/2,C,W) to be slightly
staggered like a mini backline so they had time to slide, but if say
the 1/2 gets drawn then the opposition have a massive gap behind him
and between him and the C.
So if the A,B,C defenders are tight, the opposition should have an
overlap on us, does the defence come up together pushing towards the
ball like in a normal up and out defense or does each man hold a
particular channel? If your holding a channel and the ball goes
inside is it then your inside mans job to make the tackle?
Do you encourage all defenders to stay square so that they can move
either inside or outside quickly to make a tackle? If so your players
would then have to be able to jump sideways quickly and cover a good
distance if the ball got outside them quickly. If they turn their
body they are then open to an inside ball and would have to turn
completely in the opposite direction to make the tackle. How would I
train them to move sideways quickly without turning their body?
Any advice would be appreciated, Thanks.
Queztron,
Not all defenders have to come forward at the same time, you can use a nominated press. That means that you pre-determine how many players will press up when the ball is played; we've used 3 man press, 4 man press, & ruck/edge press. The players not nominated to press are back on what we call a "taper".
From this taper the players must time their press/involvement from a) the player inside them & b) the position of the ball. If players are getting up too early then they will be caught flat-footed when it comes time to make contact & if they don't keep their feet active in the line then they will break up the shape of the defence line when the ball goes past them - they'll get left behind.
Now, as far as the overlap goes, your players must get used to being outnumbered - if they get confident with handling extras then one-on-one will be relatively easy. The basic principles of the defence line are a) press forward as quickly as possible until contact or the ball has taken a direction away from you - in which case you shift toward the ball; b) when shifting in defence talk must come from the inside out so that defenders can position themselves outwards until an even number of defenders & attackers is gained then a one-on-one situation is created; c) when defending against numbers over don't commit too early so that the inside defence can get across & help, allow the attack to pass the ball - wait for them to run out of area (sideline) & personnel (winger receives). Another option is to have your edge/fringe to press forward upon a second pass - this means that this group of defenders are visually reacting to the movement of the ball.
We don't hold channels - we defend passes, like a zone defence. We are not concerned with being locked-in positionally in defence (only the wing & fullback have positions), we want workers not right-side centres, left-side props, or locks defending left/right/middle. Press up,make contact OR press up, shift on the pass, make contact.
We like our defenders to be square at contact (we use "lane" defence - placing runners between two defenders) & square off-the-ball so that they can adjust laterally if the ball goes past them. When your players are shifting they should do so with a normal running action positioning attackers to be on "one shoulder" only trusting their inside defender to cover inside balls (guard their back) - communicating from inside out.
Rick
A bit more explanation of the taper and defensive zones:
The taper - players are spaced as per defensive line, as the players close to the ball press forward the players outside of this form an arm of players set at a 45 degree line. As the ball shifts across the field the players tapered back will press forward as the ball comes toward their lane - anticipation is needed to time their engagement into the defensive line (so as not to be over-pressing & getting caught flat footed or pausing too early & getting caught for pace when the ball shifts out). The players must understand that they need to maintain their normal spacings (shape) just set back on the taper until required to engage. Have your players get their timing from the inside defender - as they press forward then the next man will begin to press forward, as the inside man engages then the next man will press up to act as "wingman" for second phase offloads.
Our zones are ruck, edge, & fringe - with the ruck we have three men pressing forward regardless of number of players in front or width of first reciever (zone 1), then we have edge defending 2 + passes (zone 2), & fringe defending 3 + passes (zone 3). We don't have any nomination of people until close to contact on a shift or when we get the offence to a fringe & we have 3 to their 3. We press up to the first pass, then as the ball is shifted out we simply shift toward the direction of the pass - defending the pass!
Rick
Now it must be said that all of this assumes all players can make good open field tackles!
On the subject of channels - here is a little drill submitted by Daryn Reeds
Re: [leaguecoach] Slide Defence
If he's teaching slide from the beginning my suggestion is to use the coaches favourite, cones. Mark out six channels of 2m width. Each channel should be 25m long and marked at 5m intervals. Walk the kids in groups of four through a series of slides. Start with them in channels 1-4 (numbered left to right) at the 10m mark. Walk them up 5m and across to the next channel. Walk them back 10m in their new channels. Walk them up 10m and slide again. When you get to lane 6, stop start again with lanes 3-6 and slide back the other way.
Keep going with different groups, with the players at this stage concentrating solely on the distance between each other.
After you've taken all groups through at walking pace, step up to a jog, then full pace. Still concentrate only on spacing.
Next, add a ball carrier and two support runners. The ball carrier can start in lane 3 or 4 (his choice) and one support runner each side. Back to walking pace, have the carrier and his runners advance and move one way. Let the sliding defence cover the attack. Repeat a few times, then increase the pace again.
Once you've been through all of the groups at running pace take them to the full sized field, no cones and jog through again. Making sure the spacing is correct, increase the speed to full.
When this has been 'mastered' set up you're usual defensive pattern and with a couple of spare players test them out. Get them all calling the slide and getting used to the movements they make.
Get the 'spares' to run outside their targeted defender and then look to come back inside. Make the sliding defenders think about the inside runner, while maintaining their spacing.
At this stage it'll become apparant to the players just why they had to initially concentrate on space only !!
It's not a drill as such, but it's how I break it down into small components and you can take as long as the players need.
Daryn
I hope that there is something in all of this that proves useful.
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Forum Newbie
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Last Login: 23/08/2008 11:46:45
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| Sqhibha I would endorse both the replies you have already received. If you look at rugby league drills for what we in union call "drift" defence you will see that they often call it "up and out". The clue is in the name: they first eat up 4-5 metres in front of them and then shuffle sideways. This enables them to keep their shoulders square-on to the direction of play and thus they do not present a weak shoulder which is vulnerable to the player cutting back inside. Traditional drift defence in union has involved running diagonally across the pitch. It is vulnerable to the cut-back because the inside shoulder is always weak. I also would favour using this on opposition scrum ball under the new ELVs. The advantage of "up and out" is that if they attack the 10-12 channel instead of going wide you are still in a good position to accelerate into a rush defence. Hope that helps
Cheers
Doc
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 17/11/2008 21:34:53
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A cricial difference between what RL call an up and out and what they call a drift is that in the latter when a call is made, all shift across to the next player in the line. In up and out, no such collective shift or drift occurs. When the ball goes past your man you and only you turn your attention to the next player along in the line, making sure to cover the inside channel. In this way numbers in defence are focussed on the ball carrier. The drift is, as noted vulnerable to plays that cut back across it and, imho is best deployed when outnumbered.
What you call these things is a matter of semantics however they are quite different. As noted by a previous writer the up phase is key as too many defenses are poor at coming forward.
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Junior Member
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Last Login: 29/09/2008 22:46:21
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| I have to agree with the other posters in that the key component is the Up phase. Certainly at mini/midi rugby an organised defence can contain and get unforced errors - dropped passes and knock on's from most teams - and at that age most sides are usually based around one or two fast runners or the big lad who does the stick up the jumper routine. I would also add that the defence needs to be agressive (controlled) and that can make a huge difference. Once you can get them to do the Up phase well and aggressively, whether they go out or in is something they should learn to decide as they play - key is organisation and one voice calling the in or out.
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